23 replies to this topic

[planetweckesser]

Just got back from Circuit City - they have the new Sony BDPS-300 setup as a demonstrator. I tried my most recent project - 4 - 20 minutes videos with a main menu and submenus for each video with motion chapter buttons and motion backgrounds - I had it on both BD-R and BD-RE media. It plays perfectly in Sony PS3 with the latest firmware upgrade (1.81) and in my Sony BDP-S1 both with firmware upgrade 1.55 and (just installed this morning) firmware upgrade 2.0 . Tried both discs in the BDP-S300 and both gave the same message "cannot play this disc". The actual remote control for the new machine is identical to that of the BDP S-1 and the menu screens, setup etc. are the same - even the firmware version states 2.0

So here we go again - a second generation player with the latest firmware not playing DVDitPro HD authored discs. This does not bode well for trying to distribute our blu-ray projects for people to play them at some future date.

I somewhow remember when the first description of this new Sony player was announced that it was not designed to play BD-R or BD-RE discs.

SS Scott - any ideas? Another software patch for DVDitPro HD like the PS3 patch? Wait and see if Sony does any more with future firmware upgrades for the new player - although it seems to have the same firmware (that includes BD Java functionality) as the older BDP -S1?

Will try the new Panasonic that comes out in the next couple of weeks to see if the same thing occurs.

Sounds like commercial or wedding videographers who do any blu-ray projects might have to include a Sony PS3 in their base price so people will be able to play the final project!

Just answered my own question - the player will not playback BD-R or BD-RE discs - maybe this is basic to the player itself and cannot be fixed with future firmware updates? See the following link:  http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-doc....pl?mdl=BDPS300 - then click on "operating instructions" and lookup up " This player can play the following discs and files and then lookup "Examples of discs that the player cannot play" and you will see at the top BD-REs/BD-Rs.

I wonder if this will be true for all the new second generation players. Why did Sony deliberately build a player not designed to do this?

Edited by planetweckesser, 23 June 2007 - 08:48 AM.

[DonHDV]

I believe that the "pipeline" for such consumer electronic items is at least 3 months from release to manufacturing to availability in stores.....so the firmware is likely to be that old.   I would not be suprised to see an update in weeks.

[mmace]

SS Scott - any ideas? Another software patch for DVDitPro HD like the PS3 patch?

If that's what it needs then it's not acceptable, there's no way we can all keep our projects with all the source files incase a player comes out that needs a DVDit fix, we should be able to make an ISO and keep just that and not need everything else!

[tarkken]

Why would Sony do this...  Firmware update the old one, update the PS3, but make their newest/cheapest BD set top not capable of playing BD-R/BD-RE?

It's confusing, frustrating and very disappointing...


Can we please start to compile a master 'verified' player list that we can reference (all generations)?  Perhaps a sticky?  I'm going to need to reference it before promising BluRay to clients.

What a goofy thing...

Edited by tarkken, 25 June 2007 - 12:32 PM.

[Richo]

After all these years I should have known to hold back on the Sony BDP-S300.  It will not read rewriteable BD discs. Shame on me, it's right in the manual. I assumed this new version would have had the capability to help us prototype our content.  I guess the fix needs to come from Sony, but not sure if there is a fix. I did talk to support at Sony and they don't have anything on the horizon.  But the person talking was not familiar with the unit.  If anyone has an update on whether Roxio or Sony has a solution to this please post it.

Edited by Richo, 26 June 2007 - 12:36 PM.

[ERog]

Just answered my own question - the player will not playback BD-R or BD-RE discs - maybe this is basic to the player itself and cannot be fixed with future firmware updates? See the following link:  http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-doc....pl?mdl=BDPS300 - then click on "operating instructions" and lookup up " This player can play the following discs and files and then lookup "Examples of discs that the player cannot play" and you will see at the top BD-REs/BD-Rs.

I wonder if this will be true for all the new second generation players. Why did Sony deliberately build a player not designed to do this?

You know waht? There is something that seems very interesting with that PDF manual on the page you have linked.

When you open it in Adobe Reader and do a search for BD-R, it pulls up three references in the PDF.

Two of them are in plain sight - just definitions of BD-R. But the FIRST occurence is hidden on Page 22, within a screenshot of the player's playback "Sources". It looks VERY much like there was originally an entry for BD-R sources on that page, and that it was edited out before the PDF was finalized and posted, but they accidentally left the location information for the index.

If that's the case, it looks like it is possible that during developement, they were supporting BD-Rs, but intentionally removed the support sometime before launch.

Anyone here good with PDF documents to check what I am looking at? I tried to copy the text at that location, but there was none - just the index reference.

Try this - do another search for "Music" (without the quotes) - the 11th reference in the list highlights the space, on the screenshot, directly above the Mysterious empty BD-R space. This space clearly shows "Music" on the screenshot. The empty space below clearly seems to have been, at one time, for BDR.........

Edited by ERog, 06 August 2007 - 03:44 PM.

[Talkstr8t]

I've posted clarification to this issue on the AVSForum Insider's Thread, which I'll repost here.  Note that there is a lot of followup on the thread.

BD-R/-RE clarification

I've received permission to relay information I received from a CE vendor contact. Some of this slightly contradicts what might be interpreted from what paidgeek has posted; hopefully he'll be able to check with his sources and either confirm what I've posted or either of us will correct as required.

Most current Blu-ray players were shipped with "grace period" support where they weren't required to fully implement AACS on BD-R/-RE discs. In practice what this means on these players is that a BD-R/-RE disc authored with AACS copy protection will not play, while BD-R/-RE discs without AACS copy protection are permitted to play.

Now that the grace period is over players must either fully support AACS from BD-R/-RE, or they may not support BDMV from BD-R/-RE at all. If a player does support AACS from BD-R/-RE it may also support BDMV from non-AACS BD-R/-RE (just as many current players do). Therefore once AACS is fully supported from BD-R/-RE on a given player, the situation will be no different than it is today. Bear in mind that BD-R/-RE support is not required on a Blu-ray Disc player (just as DVD(+/-)R/RW support isn't required on a DVD player). However, I expect most future players will fully support BDMV from BD-R/-RE (with or without AACS). My contact says a firmware upgrade to the players recently released without BDMV BD-R/-RE support is technically possible, but hasn't yet been committed to.

Based on this explanation, I don't believe there is any change in BD-R/-RE media whatsoever, but that this is purely a firmware-related issue. I'm also told there's no obligation for vendors to firmware update players released during the grace period to remove the ability to playback BDMV from BD-R/-RE.

Hope this helps clarify things.

Note that, while I'm told that the BDP-S300 drive is capable of reading BD-R/-RE media, there is no assurance that Sony will enable this in firmware.  My suspicion is that they will, however, and that (in time) this model will have full BDMV support from BD-R/-RE media.

- Talk

Edited by Talkstr8t, 07 August 2007 - 01:31 PM.

[shueardm]

Great info, but there's 63 pages in that thread, which page does it start?

[plee]

Bear in mind that BD-R/-RE support is not required on a Blu-ray Disc player (just as DVD(+/-)R/RW support isn't required on a DVD player). However, I expect most future players will fully support BDMV from BD-R/-RE (with or without AACS). My contact says a firmware upgrade to the players recently released without BDMV BD-R/-RE support is technically possible, but hasn't yet been committed to.

Sounds like we have to keep presure on the companies to support BD-R/RE with/without AACS!  Companies like Roxio, Nero, etc... should also put the pressure on them.

[tarkken]

Sounds like we have to keep presure on the companies to support BD-R/RE with/without AACS!  Companies like Roxio, Nero, etc... should also put the pressure on them.

How's this for pressure - I'm not buying Sony Blu-Ray players anymore until they stick the firmware in (the 300 was top on my list this year - was going to get three)...  I figure if there are 100,000 more of you to add to this, maybe they'll listen...

I've bought my $30 BluRay movie discs - I bought the burners and their burning media.  I want to play my content on their future boxes - and not worry about my current legacy boxes getting 'firmwared out' of playback.

If they are worried about piracy - then put security in on their overpriced discs - or sue anyone making ripping software.  I'm one of the guys helping them win the format war.  Irony should carry a gun...

[Gilbert-Martin]

Said that before, just now, when more and more people are considering which format to choose due to the new LCDs with superb quality etc., just now...they take out the ability to produce ones own BD with a menue. What the hell are these people thinking at Sony? Is that the new "scientology" from Japan we have to surrender to?

[Talkstr8t]

Said that before, just now, when more and more people are considering which format to choose due to the new LCDs with superb quality etc., just now...they take out the ability to produce ones own BD with a menue. What the hell are these people thinking at Sony?

Two points:

1. BDAV (the simpler "home" authoring format) also supports menus, but much simpler ones
2. The current situation is likely to be interim, not long-term.

[Tvjohn]

Two points:

1. BDAV (the simpler "home" authoring format) also supports menus, but much simpler ones
2. The current situation is likely to be interim, not long-term.

Sony Pictures is calling the shots, the independant (home) recording of BlueRay is not a high priority, they are FAR more interested in content protection. Lets hope that the pressure from HDDVD authoring modifies their behaviour, but I doubt it.

[Gilbert-Martin]

I still haven't purchased DVDit ProHD, so it would be interesting to know...: If I want to create that sort of simple menue in the BDAV format , get I to choose the BDAV for that, or does DVDit ProHD decide which container it packs the menue in?
Cause frankly I will only do this investment if at least a simple menue will come out, that works on BD-R, respectively BD standalone players.

[plee]

I still haven't purchased DVDit ProHD, so it would be interesting to know...: If I want to create that sort of simple menue in the BDAV format , get I to choose the BDAV for that, or does DVDit ProHD decide which container it packs the menue in?
Cause frankly I will only do this investment if at least a simple menue will come out, that works on BD-R, respectively BD standalone players.

Don't think DVDit Pro HD creates the \BDAV format, there are a few other app that do, CyberProducer is what came with my Sony Blu-ray drive and it did not allow you to chose the image for your menu (to be honest I really didn't play with it too long so it may do it now).

[Gilbert-Martin]

So now its all confusing... I wrote to the roxio support in Germany (am german myself), and asked, if one can choose to use a BD/AV or BDMV menue in DVDitPro HD, and guess what the support wrote me: "DVDit Pro HD does not produce those interactive menues anyway, that would only be done by the profl sonic products that cost a lot more."

So now what? Are they BDAV and supported by Sony and other players or are they BDMV, or both?
This discussion is getting pretty confusing  
All one wants and expects to find a product to produce a BD-R with a simple BDAV, where one can choose the own background picture and link to the chapters - a BD-R that can be read by basically all standalone players that support at least BD-R generally.
But it seems neither here nor at the support the answers are clear. So I guess I just wait and do it with Avid Liquid or so later...

[SS Scott]

DVDit Pro HD is BDMV on BD-R.  Full DVD-like menus and sub menus in 1080p, 1080i or 720p.   Some BD players currently support it, some do not.  

Creator 9 is BDAV on BD-R.  No menus...or possibly just menus that are created by the BD player from metadata you include with your BDAV streams...but if there are those BD player created menus they will look different on different players because it is up to the player manufacturer to interpret the metadata and present it.  Some currently support BDAV on BD-R, some do not.

[Tvjohn]

DVDit Pro HD is BDMV on BD-R.  Full DVD-like menus and sub menus in 1080p, 1080i or 720p.   Some BD players currently support it, some do not.  

Creator 9 is BDAV on BD-R.  No menus...or possibly just menus that are created by the BD player from metadata you include with your BDAV streams...but if there are those BD player created menus they will look different on different players because it is up to the player manufacturer to interpret the metadata and present it.  Some currently support BDAV on BD-R, some do not.

Any word as to when HD DVD authoring will be supported?

[Gilbert-Martin]

Any word as to when HD DVD authoring will be supported?

Thats interesting, good question! Cause according to their homepage it even supports Blu Ray and HD footage...

[ERog]

On AVS Forum, Talkstr8t claims that you can do menuing and graphical menus with BDAV and that BDMV is not required.

I did not think this to be the case. Can someone clarify this?

Also, here is my summary of the discussions I have seen on AVS Forum, based on Q&As with insiders like Paidgeek.

1) BDMV playback on BD-R/RE discs was "never supposed to be allowed", according to Paidgeek - but was only allowed temporarily to help studios test releases they were working on.

2) BDMV playback from BD-R/RE media is now Banned again on all new BD players shipping, since this "grace period" has ended.

3) The exception is AACS-approved BD-R/RE "3.0" media - which does not APPEAR to EXIST, yet! the specs do not even show up on the BD or AACS sites, showing only BDR 2.0 discs.

4) Players that cannot play back AACS-encoded BD-R/RE 3.0 media are NOT allowed to playback ANY BDMV content from any BD-R/RE media.

5) Since the spec doesn't seem to yet be finalized and the discs do not seem to yet exist - DO NOT get your hopes up.

This appears to be yet another example of comepltely ill-thought-out (or NOT thought out) Bluray specs screwing up the consumer...

Some of the info that talkstr8t has given on AVS which contradicted Paidgeek has now been shown to be incorrect.

I would put more stock in the summary of paidgeek's answers, above, than in what talkstr8t has stated here.

Just my 2 cents - nothing personal talkstr8t, I'm sure you MEAN well.