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Vista - Licensing

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I am sure that some of you may know this already but I was completely surprised when it was explained to me when purchasing a new computer for the boss that has Vista pre-loaded:

 

You are not allowed to remove the Vista OS and replace it with XP or any earlier version as stated in the MS end-user licensing agreement.

 

The only way this can be done (legally) is if the machine at one time had an earlier version of the OS preinstalled by the OEM.

 

I found this out when I could not find a couple of XP drivers to cover the hardware that was to be purchased. This is what I was told by the sales support rep of the computer manufacturer when I called to make sure that XP drivers were available.

 

I wanted to share this.. Like I said, I couldn't believe what I was hearing.... Several forum members have stated that they would not consider installing Vista for a while and I have read posts where it was suggested to wipe a new computer and install XP.

 

What if the user or owner decided not to accept the end user agreement that pops up when the computer boots for the first time?

 

I think the whole idea is ridiculous.

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I am sure that some of you may know this already but I was completely surprised when it was explained to me when purchasing a new computer for the boss that has Vista pre-loaded:

 

You are not allowed to remove the Vista OS and replace it with XP or any earlier version as stated in the MS end-user licensing agreement.

 

The only way this can be done (legally) is if the machine at one time had an earlier version of the OS preinstalled by the OEM.

 

I found this out when I could not find a couple of XP drivers to cover the hardware that was to be purchased. This is what I was told by the sales support rep of the computer manufacturer when I called to make sure that XP drivers were available.

 

I wanted to share this.. Like I said, I couldn't believe what I was hearing.... Several forum members have stated that they would not consider installing Vista for a while and I have read posts where it was suggested to wipe a new computer and install XP.

 

What if the user or owner decided not to accept the end user agreement that pops up when the computer boots for the first time?

 

I think the whole idea is ridiculous.

 

Wow! I haven't read up on the Vista license, but I would truly be shocked it that was true. :(:(:( If it is true, it sure isn't right.

Edited by grandpabruce

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I am sure that some of you may know this already but I was completely surprised when it was explained to me when purchasing a new computer for the boss that has Vista pre-loaded:

 

You are not allowed to remove the Vista OS and replace it with XP or any earlier version as stated in the MS end-user licensing agreement.

 

The only way this can be done (legally) is if the machine at one time had an earlier version of the OS preinstalled by the OEM.

 

I found this out when I could not find a couple of XP drivers to cover the hardware that was to be purchased. This is what I was told by the sales support rep of the computer manufacturer when I called to make sure that XP drivers were available.

 

I wanted to share this.. Like I said, I couldn't believe what I was hearing.... Several forum members have stated that they would not consider installing Vista for a while and I have read posts where it was suggested to wipe a new computer and install XP.

 

What if the user or owner decided not to accept the end user agreement that pops up when the computer boots for the first time?

 

I think the whole idea is ridiculous.

I have to purchase a tablet pc for my son for school (they give me no choices). A Toshiba from CDW-G with Vista Business. However, it comes preconfigured as per the school specs with XP. When he finishes school, he is supposed to be allowed to restore the Vista Business partition (should anyone want to). I wonder how CDW-G gets past this as it seems very similar to me.

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I have to assume that because the original computer had an OEM copy of XP on it that you could removve it and install Vista, but if you decide to sell the original computer, the OEM OS has to go with it as it can't be used on any other computer.

 

On the other hand if I have a home built computer that has a retail version of XP that was installed on it. I can remove that and install it on another computer, no problem. Then I can install a copy of Vista on that same computer, but it had better be a retial copy of oit has to go with the computer same as the original OEM XP copy did. That's the rotten part about OEM MS OS's.

 

Frank...

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I have to assume that because the original computer had an OEM copy of XP on it that you could removve it and install Vista, but if you decide to sell the original computer, the OEM OS has to go with it as it can't be used on any other computer.

 

On the other hand if I have a home built computer that has a retail version of XP that was installed on it. I can remove that and install it on another computer, no problem. Then I can install a copy of Vista on that same computer, but it had better be a retial copy of oit has to go with the computer same as the original OEM XP copy did. That's the rotten part about OEM MS OS's.

 

Frank...

To clarify... I am going to purchase a new laptop for the boss. The computer only is available with Vista. XP is not an option on this particular model.

 

We can not use Vista as the traveling computers have to have a client installed to allow the computer to connect to the server through a firewall appliance and our particular hardware firewall device is no longer supported by the manufacturer as of last January so there are no plans to provide a Vista compatible client.

 

The device is very expensive as are the client licenses and everything works perfectly now so throwing in a Vista machine into the pot makes things a bit difficult.

 

The plan was to just purchase the machine, purchase a copy of XP, wipe the drive and install XP. Before we actually ordered the laptop, I went to the manufacturers website to insure that the drivers needed for the hardware (wireless, bluetooth, video, audio, chipset, etc..) to run under XP were available. I did not see a driver for either the wireless network card or the bluetooth, both are built into the computer internally.

 

So.... I called the pre-sales support number to see if maybe I just missed the drivers on the website. I was asked why I needed the XP drivers as the machine is only available with Vista. I explained the boggle and that is when I was told that I could not do what I was planning (legally).

 

Again... I was shocked to find out that you are not allowed to go backwards in regards to the OS (legally).

 

I asked if the machine could be purchased with no OS... No can do!

 

If the machine was mine personally... I wouldn't care and just do it anyway but because the machine will belong to a business, why take the chance.

 

I am going to see if I can get a copy of the end user license without purchasing the software (Vista) and read the fine print. I do own a copy of Ultimate personally which has not been installed. I looked at the disk trying to find a license agreement in a file but I could not find it. I know it pops up and you have to agree with it during the install.

 

My options:

 

1). don't care and do it anyway (really not an option)

2). do not accept the end user license that pops up with a new computer when booted for the first time.

3). duel boot? - Leave Vista on and install XP and duel boot the computer

 

I guess I am just mystified by what I feel is a stupid, ridiculous, clause in the license.

Edited by barryware

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You could buy an OEM XP license from a discount software seller such as buycheapsoftware.com and you will get a qualifying piece of computer hardware to go with the license. Or, find an old MS OS version CD or floppy and buy the XP upgrade license. When you install XP it will ask for the qualifying OS CD or floppy to be inserted to validate that the upgrade is legitimate.

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I have to assume that because the original computer had an OEM copy of XP on it that you could removve it and install Vista, but if you decide to sell the original computer, the OEM OS has to go with it as it can't be used on any other computer.

 

On the other hand if I have a home built computer that has a retail version of XP that was installed on it. I can remove that and install it on another computer, no problem. Then I can install a copy of Vista on that same computer, but it had better be a retial copy of oit has to go with the computer same as the original OEM XP copy did. That's the rotten part about OEM MS OS's.

 

Frank...

 

 

Two OEM OS's to one retail ($) OS, I buy the OEM's. I have the same argument's with MS for reactivation as a retail user. The key, tell Redmond what they need to hear. :lol::lol::lol:

 

cd

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You could buy an OEM XP license from a discount software seller such as buycheapsoftware.com and you will get a qualifying piece of computer hardware to go with the license. Or, find an old MS OS version CD or floppy and buy the XP upgrade license. When you install XP it will ask for the qualifying OS CD or floppy to be inserted to validate that the upgrade is legitimate.

Dave... You missed the point. According to the EULA with Vista (OEM Version) pre-installed on an OEM machine, you can not install a previous MS OS (legally) even if it is a legitimate, purchased copy of that earlier OS.

 

From a technical standpoint, yes... you can install XP and your computer will work. From a licensing standpoint, you are not allowed to install a previous version of a MS OS (XP, W2K, Win98, etc.) on a computer that Vista has been installed by the OEM.

Edited by barryware

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You missed the point.

 

Five of us in this discussion are the OEM builder installer. I repeat, tell Redmond what they need to hear.

 

cd

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Dave... You missed the point. According to the EULA with Vista (OEM Version) pre-installed on an OEM machine, you can not install a previous MS OS (legally) even if it is a legitimate, purchased copy of that earlier OS.

 

From a technical standpoint, yes... you can install XP and your computer will work. From a licensing standpoint, you are not allowed to install a previous version of a MS OS (XP, W2K, Win98, etc.) on a computer that Vista has been installed by the OEM.

Ah... but what if instead you just pull the original HD, replace it with a new one and then install XP? Is it really the same machine at that point? Have you really "uninstalled" Vista (it's still on the original drive)? Maybe a technicality, but maybe one worth investigating.

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All the more reason to build your own or have it done.

High end laptop... I know of no resources to build a "home brew" laptop.

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Dave... You missed the point. According to the EULA with Vista (OEM Version) pre-installed on an OEM machine, you can not install a previous MS OS (legally) even if it is a legitimate, purchased copy of that earlier OS.

 

From a technical standpoint, yes... you can install XP and your computer will work. From a licensing standpoint, you are not allowed to install a previous version of a MS OS (XP, W2K, Win98, etc.) on a computer that Vista has been installed by the OEM.

I also wonder how that would stand up in a court of law...

 

But, to continue the discussion, does that also preclude making the machine dual-bootable with XP? Guess I'd have to read the EULA myself.

Edited by d_deweywright

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Interesting point you brought up Dave regarding removing the original HD and replacing it with another and then install a new XP OS. If that is a technical loop hole then even with a laptop you wouldn't have to "build your own" as suggested. It's very easy to remove and replace a HD in a laptop.

 

I need to read that Vista EULA agreement also to see just how it reads in regards to barryware's point. I can't believe that it wouldn't be O.K. to dual boot even if it did read as suggested. As a matter of fact, I think that's the way I would go if I needed XP on a Vista laptop.

 

Frank...

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I have worked on software contacts and licensing for over 30 years and I have never heard of a software license that prohibits the use of other software on the same processor. On the other hand, an OEM license specifically states that the hardware that the software was originally licensed to or purchased with is the only place where the software is licensed to run. We all know that certain hardware manufacturers only sell Windows with their PC but I have never heard that you can't wipe the OS off the PC and install another OS such as Linux, Unix, Redhat or even a roll-your-own. How could you ever upgrade from one OS to another if the software license prohibited another OS from being installed. It might indicate that you would forfeit the right to use the OS if a different OS was installed on that particular PC. A remote possibility is that the manufacturer owns the hardware and what you really have is only a license to use it similarly to software licensing which would therefore mean that you could have restrictions on reselling and other aspects of use (meaning that you must run the OS originally licensed to the hardware). I would like to see the fine print on the VISTA software product license assigned to that particular PC.

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I have worked on software contacts and licensing for over 30 years and I have never heard of a software license that prohibits the use of other software on the same processor. On the other hand, an OEM license specifically states that the hardware that the software was originally licensed to or purchased with is the only place where the software is licensed to run. We all know that certain hardware manufacturers only sell Windows with their PC but I have never heard that you can't wipe the OS off the PC and install another OS such as Linux, Unix, Redhat or even a roll-your-own. How could you ever upgrade from one OS to another if the software license prohibited another OS from being installed. It might indicate that you would forfeit the right to use the OS if a different OS was installed on that particular PC. A remote possibility is that the manufacturer owns the hardware and what you really have is only a license to use it similarly to software licensing which would therefore mean that you could have restrictions on reselling and other aspects of use (meaning that you must run the OS originally licensed to the hardware). I would like to see the fine print on the VISTA software product license assigned to that particular PC.

I am talking about an MS OS, Vista to another MS OS like XP or W2k. Not another OS produced by anyone other than MS. Geeeeeeezzzz.

 

I have done some checking. It is called "Downgrade Rights" (or lack there of). In other words... you can not go backwards (with MS). There are certain circumstances in which they will allow it with ONLY the Business or Ultimate versions. Mostly volume licensed sites that have to prove that Vista will keep there business from running (something like that). I am still researching it.

 

Did you also know that even if you purchase a RETAIL version of Vista, you are only allowed to move that OS from one machine to another only ONCE??

 

So if I spend 300+ bucks on a retail version, not an OEM version, not an upgrade, and I decide to scrap my old computer and install my 300 dollar OS on a new home brew I can do that. Now a few months from now I decide to build a bigger, better, faster rig, I can NOT move that OS again. I gotta buy another license.

 

Move means just what I said, Move (remove from one rig and install on another).

 

I was shocked when I found out about these rules. I just wanted to share what I learned with you guys.

 

I am not going to debate it. I didn't make the rules.

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I just downloaded from Microsoft (here) and read the EULA for Vista Home Premium. The same EULA applies to Home Basic, and Ultimate. It's a 14-page PDF file.

 

The standard EULA doesn't prohibit removal of Vista and its replacement with XP. In fact clause 15 specifically permits transfer off the machine . . .

post-208-1184360087.jpg

 

That's the standard Microsoft EULA. I can't speak to any conditions which an OEM EULA might try to impose, but I can't see how any EULA could be enforced in law if it tried to prohibit you from ever removing and replacing the software. Even Microsoft wouldn't dare try to do that to you, because they'd have their pants sued off them.

 

Regards,

Brendon

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I just downloaded from Microsoft (here) and read the EULA for Vista Home Premium. The same EULA applies to Home Basic, and Ultimate. It's a 14-page PDF file.

 

The standard EULA doesn't prohibit removal of Vista and its replacement with XP. In fact clause 15 specifically permits transfer off the machine . . .

post-208-1184360087.jpg

 

That's the standard Microsoft EULA. I can't speak to any conditions which an OEM EULA might try to impose, but I can't see how any EULA could be enforced in law if it tried to prohibit you from ever removing and replacing the software. Even Microsoft wouldn't dare try to do that to you, because they'd have their pants sued off them.

 

Regards,

Brendon

Well Brendon that is exactly what I was talking about... An OEM version that comes preloaded with a computer, not a retail version (as far as downgrade rights). Now clause 15 which you pointed out subpart a. does state you can move the software. However, right underneath, subpart b. states you can only do it once.

 

I didn't realize there were so many lawyers here. :lol:

Edited by barryware

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"Did you also know that even if you purchase a RETAIL version of Vista, you are only allowed to move that OS from one machine to another only ONCE??"

 

I'm not sure how old that EULA agreement is you are reading, but when Vista first came out that's how it read. MS got so much static about how you could reuse a retail version of any of the Vista versions that they changed or revamped the original EULA to what it is now. (I'm talking about RETAIL, not OEM). You can remove any Retail version of Vista off any computer it is on and install it on another computer. Just as long as it's not on more than just that one computer. Not so however with an OEM copy.

 

Frank...

 

 

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I am sure that some of you may know this already but I was completely surprised when it was explained to me when purchasing a new computer for the boss that has Vista pre-loaded:

 

You are not allowed to remove the Vista OS and replace it with XP or any earlier version as stated in the MS end-user licensing agreement.

 

The only way this can be done (legally) is if the machine at one time had an earlier version of the OS preinstalled by the OEM.

 

Barryware,

 

If you're talking about "downgrade rights", you didn't make that clear in your message (above). It came over as if you were NEVER allowed to install another OS on a machine which had OEM Vista installed, and that isn't right.

 

Downgrade rights refer to when you buy a new machine with Vista pre-installed, and need to run an older OS on it until you're ready to switch to Vista. The machine does NOT have to have had at one time an earlier version of the OS preinstalled by the OEM, [but you need to be able to supply the installer with the discs for the older version. - edit]

 

Please check this PDF from Microsoft, I think it will clear up the misconception that you've been told.

 

I hear you about the lawyers :) The difference is that us amateur lawyers are allowed to be honest and don't require your firstborn as payment.

 

Regards,

Brendon

Edited by Brendon

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You guys wanna know what?

 

None of it matters. Most will do what ever they need to do and plead "ignorance" if ever challenged.

 

There is only one rule in this great country... "Don't get caught" :ninja:

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You guys wanna know what?

 

None of it matters. Most will do what ever they need to do and plead "ignorance" if ever challenged.

 

There is only one rule in this great country... "Don't get caught" :ninja:

I know there are many politicians who started out just that way. Unfortunately, most of them are from my state! :P:lol::D

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You're so right Paul. And there are many who thought they wouldn't get caught but eventually did and they come from all over. And are paying the penalty as well.

 

Not so sure all of them are from your state either Paul. We have more than our share in my state as well <_<

 

Frank...

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I know there are many politicians who started out just that way. Unfortunately, most of them are from my state! :P:lol::D

 

I think that all states are represented well, in Congress, with this type of politcian. :)

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That's what's so great about most of the people in these forums - realists!! :lol:

 

Heaven help anyone who tries to put one over them, and that's the way it should be!

 

Brendon

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Microsoft to simplify downgrades from Vista to XP

 

Microsoft will implement the first of the policy changes for its Gold Certified (top-tier) OEM partners within the next couple of weeks. The company will streamline downgrade-rights policies and procedures for the broader channel somewhat later, said John Ball, general manager of Microsoft’s U.S. Systems Group.

 

Under current licensing terms, Microsoft allows customers buying PCs preloaded with Windows Vista Ultimate and Vista Business to roll back to Windows XP until they are ready to make the move to Vista. For OEMs, the process via which these rights can be activated has been quite cumbersome, Ball acknowledged.

 

Under the current rules, OEMs must call about and file for each and every machine the license keys required to downgrade from Vista to XP. But Microsoft is planning to move to a new policy which will allow its top 170 OEM partners to submit these keys online for groups of machines, which will save them time and reduce complexity, Ball said.

 

Microsoft is working on ways to allow the rest of the channel to take advantage of these simplified downgrade procedures, but is still in the midst of hashing out the details, Ball said. He didn’t have a timetable for when Microsoft will make its more liberal downgrade-rights policies available to the rest of its PC partners.

 

Microsoft doesn’t view the popularity of user requests to downgrade from Vista to XP as a ding against Vista, Ball emphasized. In fact, at Microsoft’s Worldwide Partner Conference in Denver in July, Microsoft plans to evanglize Vista to its OEM and system-builder partners, and play up Vista’s momentum as proof that system vendors should get on the Vista bandwagon, Ball said.

 

Ball said Microsoft officials will highlight data meant to counteract the impression by some that Vista isn’t doing well in the marketplace. Among the datapoints Microsoft will emphasize, according to Ball:

 

1.Ninety-nine percent of all Windows PCs sold at retail are being sold with Vista preloaded

 

2. Seventy-eight percent of PCs preloaded with Vista are shipping with “premium” SKUs (like Vista Ultimate and Vista Home Premium)

 

3.Microsoft is experiencing 21 percent fewer support calls with Vista than it did with Windows XP

 

4.Fewer security issues that need patching with Vista than XP (five Vista issues in the first 90 days vs. 18 with XP in the first 90 days)

 

5. Device compatibility is high and getting higher daily

 

Microsoft has made it difficult for new PC buyers and channel partners to use Windows XP downgrade rights, system builders say.

At the Redmond, Wash., software giant's system builder summit last week in Phoenix, several channel executives criticized Microsoft's activation requirements, which force partners and customers to call the company to obtain a special override key to activate Windows XP on new PCs with Windows Vista pre-installed.

 

The intent of activation is to reduce piracy, but requiring customers and partners to call Microsoft and get a unique key to reactivate XP on every new Vista PC purchase frustrates new PC sales and hinders customer migrations to Vista, according to system builders.

 

Vista's general release came in late January, and the operating system now comes pre-installed on all new Windows PCs. Users can activate the new OS electronically. Typically, though, small and midsize businesses and enterprises wait several months before considering an upgrade to a new OS and tend to use the old platform until all the kinks are worked out and applications are tested.

 

Microsoft executives said the company is aware of the issue and is working on a solution.

 

Still, system builders said they're feeling the impact of the problem in the field today, and they gave Microsoft a lot of grief over the downgrade program at the summit.

 

"There remain more problems with the execution of Vista rather than the quality of the operating system. For instance, the Vista downgrade to XP is pretty much a joke," said one system builder, who requested anonymity. "You cannot market it with an XP system and the activation has to be done manually. What if you are a customer with a 100 desktops? You'll have to manually key something on each system."

 

Another system builder said the issue is a problem for Microsoft as well.

 

"Downgrade rights from Windows 98 or 2000 were much easier because you could install the older operating systems with any valid COA, and it would work. Obviously, this isn't the case from XP to Vista," said Todd Swank, vice president of marketing at Nor-Tech, Burnsville, Minn.

 

"It's a real dilemma for Microsoft. We've heard of some customers getting a new Windows XP COA number when they call the activation line, which creates problems because then customers are basically getting two licenses for the price of one," Swank said.

 

There is a workaround: Technicians can install XP without a new Certificate of Authenticity using a Volume License CD. Yet system builders are concerned that such a method would look shady to customers, Swank said.

 

Microsoft is working to resolve the complexities involved in using XP downgrade rights, said John Ball, general manager of U.S. system builders for Microsoft.

 

"It will be sooner rather than later," Ball said, promising a solution well before the end of the year. "Senior [Microsoft] executives have heard the feedback, and there is a lot of focus on getting this right. It's an issue globally, and we're focused on it."

 

One system builder in the managed services space views the situation as an opportunity to pitch services to customers. "I do handle [downgrades] for them, but I don't think it's hard. I guess system builders tend to whine a lot," said David Stinner, president of US itek Group, Buffalo, N.Y. "You can turn it around into an opportunity. We can do downgrade rights for customers, put Vista Business on it and install Windows XP Pro so they have 50 machines. And when they are ready to go to Vista, we'll upgrade them because we have the Vista keys already on it. "

 

Industry observers said at least some of the difficulties are getting ironed out. For example, some employees in Microsoft's global technical support team told some customers initially after Vista's release that they were not allowed to use downgrade rights to XP at all. But that was incorrect.

 

"Downgrade has always been a bit of a pain, especially for an operating system. You always had to have a valid CD," said Jeffrey Sherman, president of Warever Computing, Los Angeles. "However, the problem is that XP requires activation, and they won't reactivate a product key that's already been activated. However, the staff in India doesn't seem to have gotten that information, so they simply tell you that they won't activate XP."

 

 

Read it here: http://www.crn.com/software/199701468

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