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Video Format - Change 4:3 To 16:9


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#1 DerekShaw

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 01:22 AM

Is there a way to change a 4:3 format recording to 16:9?
I have an AV system with an old TV (not wide screen and only one SCART socket) but using an auto SCART switch and with the help of the satellite dealer I have managed to connect two satellite receivers (one for Sky and the other for German Television), a VCR and a DVD recorder. Despite all efforts, and for no obvious reason, the 'German' satellite receiver does not send the aspect ratio correctly to the DVD recorder. Programmes in 16:9 format get recorded as though they were 4:3. On playback everything is therefore 'too tall'. My television needs to be manually switched to the 16:9 format (which is possible with my TV) and this is satisfactory for use with this system. Probably the only way to solve the problem would be to buy a completely new system, which I will probably need to do eventually when digital and HD have finally (?) been sorted out, and when I have saved enough money!
However I would like to be able to use these DVDs on other systems if possible, so, as a test, I finalised one to try on my computer. It does play but none of the programs I have (including Windows Media Player 11, Real Player 11 and Roxio Easy Media Creator 9) are able to change the format to 16:9 for playback as I can with my TV.
Is there a way of using Creator 9 (or if necessary by updating to version 10) to transfer a recorded programme from such a DVD to my computer and somehow edit it in order to change it from 4:3 to 16:9 and then write it to a new disc so that it behaves correctly, i.e. as though it had been correctly recorded in 16:9 format?

Derek Shaw

OS is Windows XP Professional kept fully up to date using Windows Update.


#2 Jim_Hardin

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 04:27 AM

NO!!!

They are different ratios it is mathematically impossible!

If you multiply the 4, of 4:3 times 4 it is 16. But you also have to multiply the 3 times 4 and that is 12

That gives you a 16:12 ratio but you only have a 16:9 space to put it in…

OK? Try 3.

That will yield a 12:9 result.

The only thing you can do is go with a 16:9 project and learn how to live with the black bars.

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#3 DerekShaw

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 04:48 AM

QUOTE (Jim_Hardin @ Jan 31 2008, 04:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
NO!!!

They are different ratios it is mathematically impossible!

If you multiply the 4, of 4:3 times 4 it is 16. But you also have to multiply the 3 times 4 and that is 12

That gives you a 16:12 ratio but you only have a 16:9 space to put it in…

OK? Try 3.

That will yield a 12:9 result.

The only thing you can do is go with a 16:9 project and learn how to live with the black bars.


You seem to have misunderstood the problem. The original TV programme was in 16:9 format. My satellite/DVD recorder combination SQUEEZES this to a 4:3 format and hence the picture is distorted. I can play it back on my TV by manually changing the TV to the 16:9 format when the picture is no longer distorted. So it IS possible to change the incorrect 4:3 squeezed image to show correctly in 16:9. However, although I can do this with my TV, I cannot achieve this with any of the programs on my computer. My original query was therefore whether I can expand the incorrect 4:3 format to 16:9 by making use of Roxio Media Creator 9 (or upgrading to 10 if needed) in some way along the lines I gave. This has nothing to do with 4:3 is not being equal to 16:9, what I need to be able to do is multiply the 3 part by three (i.e. to make it 9) and multiply the 4 part by four (i.e. to make it 16) thereby unsqueezing the picture to display correctly.

Derek Shaw


#4 Jim_Hardin

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 07:46 AM

Might be possible… I have sent a message to another guru who has more expertise is these areas!

You still have no understanding of ratios or you would have never typed that last sentence!  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif

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#5 DerekShaw

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 08:47 AM

QUOTE (Jim_Hardin @ Jan 31 2008, 07:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Might be possible… I have sent a message to another guru who has more expertise is these areas!

You still have no understanding of ratios or you would have never typed that last sentence!  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif


I have a very thorough understanding of ratios, which as a physicist with a post graduate qualification I should have.
However in this case it is not a question of applying a ratio and scaling both dimensions by the same factor but of unsqueezing a distorted image by scaling one dimension (e.g. width) by a different factor to the other (height). To use other figures to the simplified example I gave previously, I really need to only just expand the width by a factor of 4/3 which would result in a ratio of 5.3333333333333:3 (approximately) which is the same ratio as 16:9. This would 'undo' the distortion by expanding ONLY the width of the image. This is the sort of manipulation one can do with (still) images in graphics and DTP programs (by dragging only one of the borders and not a corner of a frame) but does not seem possible in computer programs which play DVDs (e.g. Windows Media Player, RealPlayer and so on). Which is why I am asking if I can somehow transfer a DVD recording to my computer and edit it with Roxio to achieve the same effect and then write the 'corrected' video to a new disc.

Derek Shaw

#6 ggrussell

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Posted 31 January 2008 - 02:45 PM

QUOTE (DerekShaw @ Jan 31 2008, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My original query was therefore whether I can expand the incorrect 4:3 format to 16:9 by making use of Roxio Media Creator 9 (or upgrading to 10 if needed) in some way along the lines I gave.
Has something to do with how the MPEG 2 headers are saved. True anamorphic 16:9 is created by using the same resolution as 4:3 (720X480 NTSC), but instead uses non-square pixels. It is then up to the 'player' (software or hardware) to correctly display the image.  When the player does not recognize the 16:9 flag correctly or the flag wasn't written properly, then the image looks squished when played back.

There is no way in the EMC 10 to correct this if the file is not properly recognized as 16:9. However, there are several freeware or shareware that can.  I think SUPER can do it and TMPEGenc.  Just look for aspect ratio on those websites.

Edited by ggrussell, 31 January 2008 - 02:47 PM.

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#7 DerekShaw

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 03:35 AM

QUOTE (ggrussell @ Jan 31 2008, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Has something to do with how the MPEG 2 headers are saved. True anamorphic 16:9 is created by using the same resolution as 4:3 (720X480 NTSC), but instead uses non-square pixels. It is then up to the 'player' (software or hardware) to correctly display the image.  When the player does not recognize the 16:9 flag correctly or the flag wasn't written properly, then the image looks squished when played back.

There is no way in the EMC 10 to correct this if the file is not properly recognized as 16:9. However, there are several freeware or shareware that can.  I think SUPER can do it and TMPEGenc.  Just look for aspect ratio on those websites.


Thank you for this information, it gives me pointers to follow up and also shows the way to a possible solution.
After reading your post I looked around further in these forum pages and did a bit of Googling. It appears that this is a fairly common problem. I also came across the freeware program IfoEdit which looks as though it is particularly designed to deal with it. However I also read one post in these forums (which I have been unable find again) which said that IfoEdit does not work properly with Windows XP. Has anyone any experience of this? I thought that Windows XP could handle any program at least back to Windows 95 versions by using the Compatibility feature if it does not otherwise work in XP (I have used this successfully myself for one such program).
I can now see that the problem I have is to do with the 16:9 flag, either it is not being sent to the DVD recorder by the satellite receiver or the DVD recorder does not recognise it.
So the method which I think will work for me is as follows:-
1. Finalise the required DVD in the recorder
2. Transfer (capture) this to my computer using Roxio
3. Use a suitable program to set the 16:9 flag
4. Write this all to a DVD using Roxio and finalise it.

Clearly rather a tedious process and I would only need this in order to produce a DVD to play on other equipment because my TV can be manually switched to 16:9 for playing on that.

Now I 'just' need to explore and try out programs that can set the 16:9 flag.

Thank you once again for providing the information to start from.

Derek Shaw


#8 delta-alpha

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 06:51 AM

Derek,

I have used IfoEdit many times for this purpose with XP Pro and have never had a problem.

Copy the DVD's folders to your hard drive using Windows Explorer or something (don't capture the video).

Open the first .IFO file (in the VIDEO_TS folder you just copied to your HDD) in IfoEdit (the Open button is rather oddly placed at bottom left of the IfoEdit window) and you will see a line something like this:

Video: MPEG2 720x576 (PAL 625/50) (4:3) .......    

Double-click this line and a dialog box will open. Change the aspect ratio to 16:9, check Automatic Pan&Scan and Automatic Letterboxed and click OK. There may be more than one of these lines in VIDEO_TS.IFO - do this for them all.

Save the .IFO file. IfoEdit will prompt you to save the .BUP file as well - do that.

Do this for each of the .IFO files listed when you click Open in IfoEdit and then write the folders back to a DVD using Creator Classic.

Job done!

Nothing is changed in the video (.VOB) files - as you guessed, just the 16:9 flags are set and they're in the .IFO files.

Edited by delta-alpha, 01 February 2008 - 11:11 AM.


#9 DerekShaw

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 12:10 PM

QUOTE (delta-alpha @ Feb 1 2008, 06:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Derek,

I have used IfoEdit many times for this purpose with XP Pro and have never had a problem.

Copy the DVD's folders to your hard drive using Windows Explorer or something (don't capture the video).

Open the first .IFO file (in the VIDEO_TS folder you just copied to your HDD) in IfoEdit (the Open button is rather oddly placed at bottom left of the IfoEdit window) and you will see a line something like this:

Video: MPEG2 720x576 (PAL 625/50) (4:3) .......    

Double-click this line and a dialog box will open. Change the aspect ratio to 16:9, check Automatic Pan&Scan and Automatic Letterboxed and click OK. There may be more than one of these lines in VIDEO_TS.IFO - do this for them all.

Save the .IFO file. IfoEdit will prompt you to save the .BUP file as well - do that.

Do this for each of the .IFO files listed when you click Open in IfoEdit and then write the folders back to a DVD using Creator Classic.

Job done!

Nothing is changed in the video (.VOB) files - as you guessed, just the 16:9 flags are set and they're in the .IFO files.


Thank you so much. This is just what I wanted. Just copying from the DVD to the hard drive will be so much easier. I have downloaded IfoEdit although have not yet installed it, but felt I ought to thank you first for so clearly detailing the necessary procedure and saying that IfoEdit works fine with XP Pro. Just a some points I would like to confirm please. Presumably, after copying to the hard disk, the Read Only attribute should be removed from all the .IFO and .BUP files before using IfoEdit? Also, on completion, after using Roxio Classic to copy the files to a new DVD (which will reset the Read Only attributes) presumably it will also need finalising before it can be used?

Derek Shaw

Edited by DerekShaw, 01 February 2008 - 12:12 PM.


#10 Jim_Hardin

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 01:02 PM

The Read Only Attribute will be automatically taken care of by XP. – XP cannot write to Finalized Optical Media, therefore any and all files on that media are Read Only…

Creator Classic is incapable of creating a DVD Movie!

You must use Disc Copier and point it to the VIDEO_TS folder you copied off of the DVD Movie. DC will take care of everything without any interference needed.

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#11 delta-alpha

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 01:21 PM

QUOTE (DerekShaw @ Feb 1 2008, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thank you so much. This is just what I wanted. Just copying from the DVD to the hard drive will be so much easier. I have downloaded IfoEdit although have not yet installed it, but felt I ought to thank you first for so clearly detailing the necessary procedure and saying that IfoEdit works fine with XP Pro. Just a some points I would like to confirm please. Presumably, after copying to the hard disk, the Read Only attribute should be removed from all the .IFO and .BUP files before using IfoEdit? Also, on completion, after using Roxio Classic to copy the files to a new DVD (which will reset the Read Only attributes) presumably it will also need finalising before it can be used?

Derek Shaw


Derek,

When you copy the folders to your HDD, create a new folder called "DVD" or something and copy the folders into there. I've never found a need to do anything with the attributes.

The "write the folders to a DVD using Creator Classic" bit should have read "... using Disc Copier". Choose the CD & DVD Copy tab, browse for your "DVD" or whatever folder and click OK.

When you've done that, just click Burn and the DVD will be burnt and ready to play either on a TV or a PC.

Incidentally, I only do this for DVDs that I want to play on my laptop (4x3 display) - the TV doesn't seem to care whether I do it or not. When I've done it, it appears letterboxed on the laptop and full screen the (widescreen) TV. Mind you, TVs are funny things when it comes to aspect ratios... yours may be different!


#12 delta-alpha

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 01:48 PM

QUOTE (Jim_Hardin @ Feb 1 2008, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Creator Classic is incapable of creating a DVD Movie!

You must use Disc Copier and point it to the VIDEO_TS folder you copied off of the DVD Movie. DC will take care of everything without any interference needed.


Yeah, I made a mistake there, Jim, but at least I understood what Derek was asking...


#13 DerekShaw

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 05:41 AM

QUOTE (delta-alpha @ Feb 1 2008, 01:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Derek,

When you copy the folders to your HDD, create a new folder called "DVD" or something and copy the folders into there. I've never found a need to do anything with the attributes.

The "write the folders to a DVD using Creator Classic" bit should have read "... using Disc Copier". Choose the CD & DVD Copy tab, browse for your "DVD" or whatever folder and click OK.

When you've done that, just click Burn and the DVD will be burnt and ready to play either on a TV or a PC.

Incidentally, I only do this for DVDs that I want to play on my laptop (4x3 display) - the TV doesn't seem to care whether I do it or not. When I've done it, it appears letterboxed on the laptop and full screen the (widescreen) TV. Mind you, TVs are funny things when it comes to aspect ratios... yours may be different!



Success. Thank you again.

There are just a few points which puzzled me, but what I did seems to have worked.

For the DVD I used -
In a file VIDEO_TS.IFO there are two lines with MPEG in them:-
Video: MPEG-2  720x576  (PAL) ………
VTS_1 Video: MPEG-2  352x576  (PAL) ………

In a file VTS_01_0.IFO there are two lines:
Video: MPEG-2  352x576  (PAL) ………
Video: MPEG-1 720x48  (NTSC) ………

Not being quite sure what to do I changed all the lines containing MPEG-2 to 16:9 and checked Automatic Pan&scan and Automatic Letterboxed but did not change the resolution of the 352x576 lines. I also did not change the line containing MPEG-1.

It worked and the DVD now plays correctly on my computer and also on my TV without having to manually change the picture setting of the TV to 16:9.

Just a couple of comments relating to points I asked before and which were therefore indeed not irrelevant:-
When the Read only files on the DVD are copied to the hard disk (using Windows Explorer) they lose their Read only attribute.
When the new DVD is burned using Roxio it is automatically finalised at the end of the process.


Derek Shaw


#14 delta-alpha

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:16 AM

Hi Derek,

Glad it worked!

From what I have found by Googling, you should change the aspect ratios and the checkboxes for the videos and leave the ones for the menus.

From what I’ve found in practice, it doesn’t seem to matter if you do change the menu ones so I usually change them all.

I can’t tell from your post which you’ve changed, except that the MPEG1 is related to the menus. You can tell which are which by looking at the headings under which the lines “Video: ….” appear - the headings will refer to “Menu” or “Title Set” somewhere and the Title Set ones are the videos.

Actually, there’s something you may be able to help me with. Did you make the original DVD using MyDVD and 352x576 resolution? If so, how did you do it? I want to do that but the option is greyed out in the Project Settings.

Edit: I just read your post yet again! Do you mean that you changed the aspect ratio for the 3 MPEG2 files but did not change the resolution in IfoEdit for the 2 352x576 ones of those 3? So you still have the 2 352x576 entries but they now have an aspect ratio of 16:9? If you do mean that, it's fine.

Edited by delta-alpha, 02 February 2008 - 08:47 AM.


#15 DerekShaw

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Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:57 AM

QUOTE (delta-alpha @ Feb 2 2008, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Derek,

Glad it worked!

From what I have found by Googling, you should change the aspect ratios and the checkboxes for the videos and leave the ones for the menus.

From what I’ve found in practice, it doesn’t seem to matter which you change so I usually change them all.

I can’t tell from your post which you’ve changed, except that the MPEG1 is related to the menus. You can tell which are which by looking at the headings under which the lines “Video: ….” appear - the headings will refer to “Menu” or “Title Set” somewhere and the Title Set ones are the videos.

Actually, there’s something you may be able to help me with. Did you make the original DVD using MyDVD and 352x576 resolution? If so, how did you do it? I want to do that but the option is greyed out in the Project Settings.

Edit: I just read your post yet again! Do you mean that you changed the aspect ratio for the 3 MPEG2 files but did not change the resolution in IfoEdit for the 2 352x576 ones of those 3? So you still have the 2 352x576 entries but they now have an aspect ratio of 16:9? If you do mean that, it's fine.


The original recording was made on a Toshiba DVD recorder. I have no idea what the resolution is. The TV programme was on a German TV station (Sat 1) received using an digital Echostar satellite receiver with a SCART lead connected directly from the receiver to the AV2 SCART socket on the recorder. Have a look at my first post to see my set-up. The TV is fairly old now and I think part of the problem is only one SCART socket and using an auto-SCART switch. However there does seem to be a problem with the Echostar receiver and the SCART output but it proved impossible to sort out and was put down to being something to do with having 4 devices to connect to the TV and needing a SCART switch. I have also had to use the AV3 socket on the TV to connect the DVD recorder since there can be some interaction between devices under certain conditions.

And yes you have it correct that that is what I changed. Anyhow it works fine and I have produced my first DVD which plays correctly from the original distorted recording.

Derek Shaw






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