24 replies to this topic

[joe doc]

Hi,

I have several family DVDs that were created by converting from Sony 8mm tape to DVD using my LITEON Recorder LVC-9016G. The DVDs play fine on DVD player and PC. I want to save them to my hard drive to preserve them, since I don't trust the supposed life span of a DVD. I've copied them to my PC, trouble is the are BUP, IFO and VOB files, so I can't open them. Anyone have a solution to this? Thank you.

[Brendon]

Joe,

Your DVDs should last at least 30 years if stored cool, dark, flat, and dry. However your hard drive will have an average life of about 5 years depending on how much use it gets.

You have converted your video once from 8mm tape to DVD [.bup, .ifo, and .vob files] and have now transferred them to your hard drive. What do you want to do with them there? Store them, or play them?

If the answer is STORE, then you have done it.  Later when you want to return the DVD to disc, you'll need to burn a Video-DVD from the folder with whatever software you're using years in the future.

If you want to PLAY the DVD while it's on the hard drive, run CINEPLAYER. Browse to the DVD folder and Open VIDEO_TS.IFO - that will play the DVD in Cineplayer.

[joe doc]

Thank you. I guess I'm too concerned about DVD life. But I'll follow your advice.

Joe,

Your DVDs should last at least 30 years if stored cool, dark, flat, and dry. However your hard drive will have an average life of about 5 years depending on how much use it gets.

You have converted your video once from 8mm tape to DVD [.bup, .ifo, and .vob files] and have now transferred them to your hard drive. What do you want to do with them there? Store them, or play them?

If the answer is STORE, then you have done it.  Later when you want to return the DVD to disc, you'll need to burn a Video-DVD from the folder with whatever software you're using years in the future.

If you want to PLAY the DVD while it's on the hard drive, run CINEPLAYER. Browse to the DVD folder and Open VIDEO_TS.IFO - that will play the DVD in Cineplayer.

[Brendon]

Thank you. I guess I'm too concerned about DVD life. But I'll follow your advice.

Thanks Joe.

I think as the videos get more precious or irreplaceable, the best idea is probably several copies burned to disc as carefully as you can with the best media you can get [Taiyo Yudens, or similar] and then stored carefully in several different places, or even different addresses.

Go well,
Brendon

[myguggi]

Thanks Joe.

I think as the videos get more precious or irreplaceable, the best idea is probably several copies burned to disc as carefully as you can with the best media you can get [Taiyo Yudens, or similar] and then stored carefully in several different places, or even different addresses.

Go well,
Brendon

Unfortunately, I don't think you can rely on hardware 10 years in the future being able to play something created on todays hardware. Perhaps the media is still in good condition but but will any "reader" be still able to read it? The trick will be to move your "irreplacables" to the "latest" just before the "current" becomes obsolete.

[Brendon]

Yes, I'd agree with that, Walt.

So Joe, I don't think you should get too paranoid about DVD longevity. A DVD is probably the cheapest way to archive your video, [rather than a hard drive] and will probably outlive DVD drive technology so:

-make copies and store separately
-check one set every now and then and re-burn them all at the first sign of any of the discs being difficult to read
-move to a more modern medium when DVDs are phased out by something better

Regards,
Brendon

[joe doc]

Thanks again.

Yes, I'd agree with that, Walt.

So Joe, I don't think you should get too paranoid about DVD longevity. A DVD is probably the cheapest way to archive your video, [rather than a hard drive] and will probably outlive DVD drive technology so:

-make copies and store separately
-check one set every now and then and re-burn them all at the first sign of any of the discs being difficult to read
-move to a more modern medium when DVDs are phased out by something better

Regards,
Brendon

[Wingwiper]

I agree and disagree with the two experts here.

Magnetic media will out last DVD media. Why! Google DISC ROT. The dyes used in DVDs will usually start to displace rather soon.

I have VHS tapes I made over 20 years ago, off of satellite and they are as good as the day I recorded them.

How many DVDs would I need to back up, 200 VHS Tapes I made. I have Two 1TB hard drives, I am archiving my VHS tapes on and feel I am going from Magnetic media to magnetic media. Will I worry in ten years? NO! I have old hard drives that are much older than ten years that still work, providing I still have the O/S needed. I was able to copy onto a Newer Hard Drive., much faster than I would be able to copy 250 DVDs and the Hard drive was cheaper than 250 DVS and takes up less space than 250 DVDs and I have access to all my files all at once.

No disrespect intended. I have spent alot of time researching disc rot and how to archive what I wanted to archive and felt I had to share.

Not meant as an insult to anyones' opinion or intent.

[cdanteek]

I've had three Seagate ES.2 drives fail in the last year!

Don't put all your eggs in one basket...

cd

[Jim_Hardin]

I had a brand new one fail within one week this year and my laptop is on its' 4th HDD!

Quality optical media like Verbatim & Taiyo Yuden will be around long after your HDD is merely a strata layer in a landfill  

[d_deweywright]

I agree and disagree with the two experts here.

Magnetic media will out last DVD media. Why! Google DISC ROT. The dyes used in DVDs will usually start to displace rather soon.

I have VHS tapes I made over 20 years ago, off of satellite and they are as good as the day I recorded them.

How many DVDs would I need to back up, 200 VHS Tapes I made. I have Two 1TB hard drives, I am archiving my VHS tapes on and feel I am going from Magnetic media to magnetic media. Will I worry in ten years? NO! I have old hard drives that are much older than ten years that still work, providing I still have the O/S needed. I was able to copy onto a Newer Hard Drive., much faster than I would be able to copy 250 DVDs and the Hard drive was cheaper than 250 DVS and takes up less space than 250 DVDs and I have access to all my files all at once.

No disrespect intended. I have spent alot of time researching disc rot and how to archive what I wanted to archive and felt I had to share.

Not meant as an insult to anyones' opinion or intent.

I've got CD-R media that is over 10 years old now that is still readable.  I may have seen one case of "disc rot", but I can't be certain it wasn't caused by some physical damage.  And most all of the Audio CD-Rs I've seen that have become unplayable have indeed been physically damaged on the surface, allowing air to get to the dye and/or reflective surface, and that's what causes the problems as I've seen them.  Careful handling and storage is essential.  DVD-R isn't as sensitive because the dye/reflective layer(s) are sandwiched between polycarbonate layers, so I'm going to guess they'll be more reliable in the long run just because of the construction.

I'm not saying that "disc rot" doesn't happen, but in the vast majority of the cases, it seems that there are physical causes that allow it to happen, and it's not so much a "spontaneous" occurrance.

Edited by d_deweywright, 02 November 2009 - 10:26 AM.

[Brendon]

I agree and disagree with the two experts here.

Magnetic media will out last DVD media. Why! Google DISC ROT.

You can disagree all you like, Wingpiper. Just don't believe every hysterical article you find on a Google search.

"Disc rot" is a phenomenon which may be found on inferior quality discs, the same as "stiction" used to be a problem with one brand of hard drives made during a particular time period in a particular country. Neither problem is universal or inevitable. Just remember that magnetic media need to be refreshed periodically - even modern hard drives.

I think the big factor to consider in archival storage is the fact that recording technologies are being superseded well within the lifetime of the media, so you're likely to have to transcribe your data to the next generation of technology long before the current media expire. This can be done more accurately once you shift your data off analog technology [VHS tape] onto digital media of some sort. Digital copies are identical to the original, whereas analog copies never are.

Once it's digitized, how you store it is up to you.

Edited by Brendon, 02 November 2009 - 03:06 PM.

[Wingwiper]

It is a very good debate.

  I have VHS tapes from the 80s that play as well as they did then and look great.

  Disc Rot is not an illusion and is very real. TY, Verbs and Sonys seem to be among the best for picking a better quality dye. I would not bet my family treasures on those dyes lasting for longer than a few years.

  I have NEVER had to replace a hard drive and I have owned dozens and used them for years. If you all have had to replace them, have you really had to replace them or did replacing them solve the problem, that may have been solved otherwise. I sold computers for 25 years and haven't replaced as many drives as a few of you have claimed to have replaced.

Regardless, I am discussing this in a civil manner and mean no insult to anyone.

I can back up a 1tb hard drive with all of my family treasures and videos etc in about 1 hour and how long would it take to do that with 250 DVDs and the storing of 250 DVDs is another question.

  I have 3 hard drives in my system and they are backing each other up in case of a failure. I also have a few Externals that I keep on the shelf and not in or hooked up. Even if struck with a direct hit from lightning, I can be up and running in an about an hour. It would be a piece of cake to upgrade to the next generation of media.

  Hard Drives are the way to go. Price wise they are about equal to quality DVDs. they are faster to access and copy to or retrieve from.

Great debate guys, don't get personal, it is about technology and not about personal attacks.  Everyone has a favorite. I prefer magnetic and there are plenty of sources out there to sustaniate my views. I am not trying to insult anyone and I think I made that clear. It is a clash between technology and how it is used.

Thanks for the civil replies.

[d_deweywright]

It is a very good debate.

  I have VHS tapes from the 80s that play as well as they did then and look great.

  Disc Rot is not an illusion and is very real. TY, Verbs and Sonys seem to be among the best for picking a better quality dye. I would not bet my family treasures on those dyes lasting for longer than a few years.

  I have NEVER had to replace a hard drive and I have owned dozens and used them for years. If you all have had to replace them, have you really had to replace them or did replacing them solve the problem, that may have been solved otherwise. I sold computers for 25 years and haven't replaced as many drives as a few of you have claimed to have replaced.

Regardless, I am discussing this in a civil manner and mean no insult to anyone.

I can back up a 1tb hard drive with all of my family treasures and videos etc in about 1 hour and how long would it take to do that with 250 DVDs and the storing of 250 DVDs is another question.

  I have 3 hard drives in my system and they are backing each other up in case of a failure. I also have a few Externals that I keep on the shelf and not in or hooked up. Even if struck with a direct hit from lightning, I can be up and running in an about an hour. It would be a piece of cake to upgrade to the next generation of media.

  Hard Drives are the way to go. Price wise they are about equal to quality DVDs. they are faster to access and copy to or retrieve from.

Great debate guys, don't get personal, it is about technology and not about personal attacks.  Everyone has a favorite. I prefer magnetic and there are plenty of sources out there to sustaniate my views. I am not trying to insult anyone and I think I made that clear. It is a clash between technology and how it is used.

Thanks for the civil replies.

We're generally a pretty civil bunch.  

If you've never had to replace a HD, you're lucky.  I've had several die on me over the years, though most of them I simply "outgrew" (read: replaced with larger drives).  But some have truly died, so they're definitely not immune to failure.  I too have three physical drives in my system, and do cross drive backups, at least of my boot partition.

As for disc rot, I think Brandon's comment is accurate about it being more associated with cheaper brands.  I've stuck mostly with Verbatim and TY's over the past 10-12 years of using them.  Some that I made for my dad that became unreadable were some that I'd put stick-on labels onto, and he'd kept them in his basement, where there was just enough moisture to pucker the label, which I'm sure did physical damage to the coating on the reflective/dye layers.

As for longevity of recordable optical media, it's just like Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify".  Make more than one copy, test them every so often, and if difficulties reading them start to show up, make a fresh copy!  And that would apply to your 1TB drive backups.  Do you have more than one copy of your videos, or are they all on the single drive?  What about if (when) that drive actually dies?  If you don't have a second copy, either on a second drive, or on optical media, you've got a problem.  The belt and suspenders approach is usually only appreciated after it's needed.

Yep... we can go on a long time about the "best" way to back up and store our data.  

[Wingwiper]

We're generally a pretty civil bunch.  

If you've never had to replace a HD, you're lucky.  I've had several die on me over the years, though most of them I simply "outgrew" (read: replaced with larger drives).  But some have truly died, so they're definitely not immune to failure.  I too have three physical drives in my system, and do cross drive backups, at least of my boot partition.

As for disc rot, I think Brandon's comment is accurate about it being more associated with cheaper brands.  I've stuck mostly with Verbatim and TY's over the past 10-12 years of using them.  Some that I made for my dad that became unreadable were some that I'd put stick-on labels onto, and he'd kept them in his basement, where there was just enough moisture to pucker the label, which I'm sure did physical damage to the coating on the reflective/dye layers.

As for longevity of recordable optical media, it's just like Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify".  Make more than one copy, test them every so often, and if difficulties reading them start to show up, make a fresh copy!  And that would apply to your 1TB drive backups.  Do you have more than one copy of your videos, or are they all on the single drive?  What about if (when) that drive actually dies?  If you don't have a second copy, either on a second drive, or on optical media, you've got a problem.  The belt and suspenders approach is usually only appreciated after it's needed.

Yep... we can go on a long time about the "best" way to back up and store our data.  

  Yup! we could, but it is an interesting topic.

  I do have my files backed up on more than one drive. As I have said the 3 drives in my PC contain all my files in triplicate as well as a couple of bookshelf external drives. (one used on my laptop)  So no matter what happens, I have several layers of security. I am like a Nuclear Power Plant, even if two layers are breached, I still have two more layers of security. Never too safe when I want to protect, hundreds of man hours of work.

What I find to be most intriguing is that I have a wall of LPs, over 5000 total and what took up a whole wall, now fits on a single Hard drive... ah the days when a hard drive of 20 meg wouldn't hold a single Wav song. LOL I have all of my LPs saved in PCM Wav and I can play at will and no more wear and tear on the LPs nor do i have to run out and replace stylii. I fit a huge wall of music on a tiny little hard drive. I am simply amazed.

I have been around for all of the forms of media, over the years and when we hit a giga byte of hard drive storage, I thought we were close to maxed out and now we have passed 2 tera byte and still going and the drives are getting smaller.

Another wonder is the Flash Drives, when 256K was the marvel, they are now at 16 gig. That is almost 4 movies that can fit in your pocket or on a keychain. Think of going back in time and telling some projector operator you have 4 full length movies in your pocket. LOL

[cdanteek]

It is a very good debate.

  I have VHS tapes from the 80s that play as well as they did then and look great.

  Disc Rot is not an illusion and is very real. TY, Verbs and Sonys seem to be among the best for picking a better quality dye. I would not bet my family treasures on those dyes lasting for longer than a few years.

  I have NEVER had to replace a hard drive and I have owned dozens and used them for years. If you all have had to replace them, have you really had to replace them or did replacing them solve the problem, that may have been solved otherwise. I sold computers for 25 years and haven't replaced as many drives as a few of you have claimed to have replaced.

Regardless, I am discussing this in a civil manner and mean no insult to anyone.

I can back up a 1tb hard drive with all of my family treasures and videos etc in about 1 hour and how long would it take to do that with 250 DVDs and the storing of 250 DVDs is another question.

  I have 3 hard drives in my system and they are backing each other up in case of a failure. I also have a few Externals that I keep on the shelf and not in or hooked up. Even if struck with a direct hit from lightning, I can be up and running in an about an hour. It would be a piece of cake to upgrade to the next generation of media.



  Hard Drives are the way to go. Price wise they are about equal to quality DVDs. they are faster to access and copy to or retrieve from.

Great debate guys, don't get personal, it is about technology and not about personal attacks.  Everyone has a favorite. I prefer magnetic and there are plenty of sources out there to sustaniate my views. I am not trying to insult anyone and I think I made that clear. It is a clash between technology and how it is used.

Thanks for the civil replies.

You're welcome..

Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim make media most other brand names don't. They farm out the making to CMC Magnetics, Prodisc, Infodisc, Ritek, Moser Baer India LTD, among others...And they do it on the cheap most times, lowest bidder...Now find and identify fake media ID's made by who knows who?

Below are four disc's,

1. a Imation Branded, really a Ritek made RitekG03 Meida ID (MID) burned Nov 27 2003, still fine with a quality score of 94...

2.  a K-Hypermedia Branded, really a CMC Magnetics made Media ID (MID) CMC00RG200, burned 18 May 2003, still fine with a quality score of 91...

3. a Taiyo Yuden Branded, this ones for real made by Taiyo Yuden Media ID (MID) TYG02, burned 24 Nov 2007, still fine with a quality score of 99..

4. The best example I have of Disc Rot... TDK Branded, Media ID (MID) RicohJpn R01  burned 18 Jan 2004, the worst disc's I have ever burned...









I've had five hard drives fail in 13 years. A 1GB Western Digital, 80GB Maxtor, Two Seagate 250GB ES.2 Drives, and a Seagate 500 GB ES.2 Drive..

I assure you it wasn't a 'PLBKAC error, Problem Lies Between Keyboard And Chair' !

The bios didn't even see the drives...

Like most here are telling you, don't put all your eggs in one basket...  
cd

[Wingwiper]

Cd


I think I am being misunderstood, over and over.

My eggs are not in One Basket, they are on about 5 different Hard Drives.

My point is with the low cost of a very large capacity Hard drive, I can put files on a drive and back it up in one hour versus how much time for the equivilant  of 250 DVDs?


My point was also that the magnetic media would last as long or longer than DVD + or -Rs and they have not been around long enought to establish a track record, as have VHS tapes etc.

  
You have had 5 hard drives fail in 13 years? WOW! I have never had a hard drive fail since the 20 megs. Well, I will have to call that back, I had plenty of gummed up spindles and I would not be willing to replace drives at $600 per, so spray some Tuner Cleaner into them, slap them silly and pray.  Now I replace in order to gain capacity.

I have seen the charts for the different media and I have read about who makes what for who. I am aware of the MIT verus MIJ etc etc. I use Sonys and Verbs and I will add, that when I discard a DVD I break it first and when I discard the Verbs, the plastic seems to sperate from the foil in the whole, rather easily, whereas the Sonys break up in bits and stay together. That worries me about the Verbs.

Edited by Wingwiper, 03 November 2009 - 09:23 AM.

[cdanteek]

where as the Sonys break up in bits and stay together. That worries me about the Verbs.

  

cd

[Wingwiper]

I forgot to also ask you.

Did you try to remove the petition and then reformat those drives, you say were bad?  

I have had a few that did as you explain and I have been able remove the petition and then do a high level format, re install the petition and continue to use the drive.

Not being recognized, does not always mean a BAD drive.

[d_deweywright]

I think I am being misunderstood, over and over.

No... probably not as much as it looks, keep in mind there's a real good chance CD was working on his reply before you posted your previous reply about having multiple redundant backups.  It's just a time-lag/post overlap issue.

I forgot to also ask you.

Did you try to remove the petition and then reformat those drives, you say were bad?  

I have had a few that did as you explain and I have been able remove the petition and then do a high level format, re install the petition and continue to use the drive.

Not being recognized, does not always mean a BAD drive.

Drives I've had go bad often weren't spinning any more, and could not be encouraged to do so.  And by not being recognized, most of us are saying that the BIOS doesn't even see a drive there, so it's not a case of not recognizing a partition, or showing no data, it's a case that the electronics aren't talking any more, so there's no chance of trying to repartition or format, even if the drive is spinning.