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Creator 2012 3D Workflow Best Practices


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#1 Sasha.K.NY

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:34 PM

Hi everyone,

Just joined. I am a photographer, and started capturing my photo shoots on video for promotional purposes - here is an example:

This is put together from a couple of 2D cameras. I am excited by the Creator 2012 2D->3D conversion promise and have a few questions about it and the software's support for the emerging consumer industry standard 3D formats for input and output.


1) How well does the 2D->3D conversion work? Does it use background vs foreground camera or subject motion to identify what is in front of what, or something else reasonable, or something crude and simple? Is it adjustable? How aggressive? Are there significant artifacts? What should I know / worry about?

My goal is to get a consumer 3D camcorder e.g. Sony HDR-TD10 and intercut footage from it from one angle and from my present Canon Vixia HF11 2D footage converted to 3D, from a different angle. I could do the 3D editing in another software, such as Sony Vegas Pro; the question is can I get the 2D HD stream from Canon Vixia HF11 converted to 3D using the Creator 2012 with reasonably good results, and output it in a "reasonable" (3D NLE friendly, settings support minimising quality loss?) format?


2) From reading this forum it does not seem as though there is a support yet for AVCHD MVC .mts (3D camcorder HD stream) files, for input or output. Is it planned for this release as an update or option, does anyone have any word?


Many thanks,
Sasha

#2 Jim_Hardin

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 03:40 AM

I dabble in it but since I don't have anything capable of 3D Playback, I am limited to Anaglyph which keeps me in the beginners league :lol:

If you have the software I suggest you put together a small test sample and try it out! Then you can also try out a trial version of other software using the same test sample so you keep Apples to Apples comparisons ;)

But you also have to think in terms of Output... MyDVD can only produce No Menu projects in DVD or AVCHD format:

Attached File  MyDVD - Real ID Project.jpg   100.95K   1 downloads


Both are limited to a DVD meaning 3D AVCHD is limited to about 40 minutes...

Likewise, RealID and Anaglyph are the only output choices.

Edited by Jim_Hardin, 29 September 2011 - 03:41 AM.

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#3 Sasha.K.NY

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 07:02 AM

Thanks Jim

My intended output is youtube, which lets visitors specify whatever 3D playback technology they have available, and youtube plays the content accordingly (all from a single 3D uploaded version): http://www.google.co...y?answer=157636

Youtube natively takes in H264 AVC 1920x1080 Side by Side L/R with SEI Frame Packing Arrangement metadata, or WebM 1920x1080 Side by Side L/R with StereoMode information.

In terms of output, I was unable to find good info on RealD except the pretty high level presentation http://www.reald.com...s/Mastering.pdf

Does AVCHD 3D RealD create separate files for left and right eye? What is the file size per minute, and is it configurable (i.e. how high can you jack up the bit rate)?

As you can probably tell, I do not have the Creator 2012 product yet.

Thanks again

Alex

#4 Jim_Hardin

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 11:13 AM

That is completely different... I gave you the Output based on Disc!

Since you are only interested in files that gives you more latitude:

Attached File  Image1.jpg   184.37K   0 downloads


"jack up the bitrate??? From what to what? How high do you want to go for You Tube :lol:

You can't have both, small size & quality ;)

Roxio does not offer a trial but if purchased from their web site, they do offer a 30 day return policy.
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#5 Sasha.K.NY

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:20 PM

@ Jim:

1) That's great news that H.264 with full-width side-by-side output is possible (2nd down on your pull-down menu). This is what youtube takes, and given that it can play any format the user supports, including anaglyph. Saving 3D video as an anaglyph (basically hard-coding L/R separation by color) is not great as you can't get the lost color fidelity back from the finished product down the line. It is kind of like hard-coding subtitles as part of the video, maybe even worse.

2) Given the H.264 full-width side-by-side output basically puts two 1920x1080 streams side by side with no reduction (it is full HD output from VideoWave - is it? I am a bit confused by mention of NTSC/PAL in a digital context; perhaps they just mean frame rate?), for intermediate editing and archival purposes it seems prudent to give it double the individual (2D) stream bandwidth, 2 * 24 megabits/sec, or around 50 megabits/sec. This would minimise re-encoding generation loss, as basically I would take the 2D->3D stream from Roxio Video Wave and combine it with native 3D stream in Sony Vegas Pro. Of course, the finished version being uploaded to youtube can be compressed down from that, but uploads aside, it is always good to save a separate copy that has a slightly higher than the source footage bandwidth, to make sure it is not constraining the quality.

3) That is all great. So the remaining question is, how good is the Roxio product at 2D -> 3D conversion. I've googled around and came across other consumer options such as DVDFab 2D to 3D Converter and one or two other tools, but no online discussions of how good any of them are or how they compare. 2D to 3D Converters used by Hollywood studios are extremely sophisticated, using a dynamically weighed combination differences in background vs foreground motion when the camera is panning, as well as degree of defocus blur and other static and dynamic techniques, to produce quite accurate depth maps from which stereoscopic 3D can be generated that nearly matches native 3D shot with 2 cameras. The question is, how good is Roxio at this point at its slowest / best conversion, what are the adjustments and whether it is pretty conservative and stays "flat" because of it, or if the 3D effect is striking but often wrong / creates artifacts.

Cordially,
Alex

Edited by Sasha.K.NY, 29 September 2011 - 12:37 PM.


#6 sknis

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 02:02 PM

You might benefit by joining this group.  They do have a 3D users group for video.
PC  Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit  
Velocity Micro ProMagix ©HD 60; evga x58 motherboard, Intel i7 @2.93, 12G RAM, 250G SSD,  EVGA Nvidia 560TI superclocked video card, SoundBlaster X-Fi Xtreme audio card, Buffalo external blu-ray burner; Creator 2012, Creator NXT2 Pro. PhotoShow 6, VHS to DVD 3Plus and others.

Laptop - Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit
Alienware M17XR4.  I-7 third generation @2.4,  8G RAM, 500G SSD, GTX660M, SoundBlaster 3Di,

Apple =OSX 10.5
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#7 gi7omy

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 03:31 PM

As Jim said, you can order it directly from Roxio and if not satisfied there is a 30 day 'no questions' return policy
If it ain't broke, fiddle with it until it breaks, then fiddle with it until you get it fixed

"Rincewind could scream for mercy in nineteen languages and just scream in another forty-four "

"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee; that will do them in."

“Computers have enabled people to make more mistakes faster than almost any invention in history, with the possible exception of tequila and hand guns.” — Mitch Ratcliffe


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#8 Sasha.K.NY

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 10:30 PM

thanks folks

I'll be checking 3dphoto.net, for sure

is it part of the forum etiquette to provide hardware configuration of one's computer at the bottom of the message?

#9 gi7omy

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:03 AM

Not really - it just helps sometines (in the event of a problem) to know what the hardware is. Sometimes people will try to run something on a machine which hasn't got enough grunt to do it

Funny quotes are also acceptable :lol:

Edited by gi7omy, 30 September 2011 - 01:05 AM.

If it ain't broke, fiddle with it until it breaks, then fiddle with it until you get it fixed

"Rincewind could scream for mercy in nineteen languages and just scream in another forty-four "

"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee; that will do them in."

“Computers have enabled people to make more mistakes faster than almost any invention in history, with the possible exception of tequila and hand guns.” — Mitch Ratcliffe


Daithi

Home Brew computer
Intel I7 950 on Gigabyte X58A UD3R mobo
12 GB Three Channel DDRAM
Radeon HD4850 512 MB GDR3 graphics
Signalink USB Audio Codec for ham radio connection
1 x 160 GB, 1 x 330 GB, 1 x 400 GB IDE drives
4 x 250 GB SATA 2
LG HL-DT-ST GGW-H20L BD-RE drive
22" Acer P223W monitor


EMC 7.5 on Windows XP 32 SP3
EMC10 on Windows XP64 SP2
Creator 2011 on Windows 7 Ultimate
ECD6 on Gentoo Linux (running under VMWare)

#10 Sasha.K.NY

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:25 AM

Oh, in that case, here's what I use:
  • Intel i7-2600K Sandy Bridge 3.4GHz CPU
  • Intel DZ68DB motherboard
  • Intel 320 Series 600GB SSD drive
  • G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16GB memory
  • SONY BD-5300S Blu-ray Burner
  • KingWin Platinum LZP-550 PSU
  • Addonics AEIDDSAU SATA internal card reader
  • Edit: forgot to mention, the graphics card I use in this machine is an ATI FirePro V5800 I already had, for its 10 bit / RGB channel color depth over DisplayPort, also supported by my Dell U3011.
Attached File  SashaAndMonolit_554.jpg   153.03K   0 downloads The box pictured (Lian Li PC-V2120X) contains all of the above and was built this summer to handle my photography, video and MatLab processing needs.
I am very happy with the power supply and the case - the computer is not "pretty quiet", it is essentially silent - even if you put your ear 1 foot from the rear of it, you can hardly hear anything. Additional storage, for all content I create, is a Synology dual-drive NAS running in a mirroring configuration. Being NAS and not USB, it is simultaneously accessible from my laptop as well, and my Samsung bluray player playing videos, photos, and music. I am very happy with the Synology, it is fast and stable, but is getting pretty full. I wish for (though can't nearly afford yet) to upgrade to Qnap TS-659 Pro II NAS. At that point I'll also add an Intel dual interface NIC and team it, since Qnap also uses a teamed dual gigabit network interface. Other planned upgrades include a USB3 controller card (the motherboard only has a couple external), once they start coming out with cards that have more than one or two internal ports and more than 4 total.

Edited by Sasha.K.NY, 30 September 2011 - 07:33 AM.


#11 REDWAGON

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:54 AM

VERY NICE Sasha !! Especially the 600GB SSD. $$$$ :D

Frank...
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