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Dolby Pro Logic II

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Hello,

 

I am very very very very (can't say that enough) disappointed with Roxio and Popcorn 2. WHY Roxio doesn't Popcorn 2 convert DVD's with surround sound in Dolby Pro Logic II (which keeps the surround sound in stereo) Handbrake a free program does this, why not you?

(note just got off the phone with sales who said it doesn't use pro logic technology)

 

Also why doesn't Popcorn 2 allow you to keep chapters, once again like Handbrake?

 

No offense but we paid $50 for an application that doesn't do what it should. Sorry but if you want to export things to High quality for iTunes, than tell me why no Pro Logic II!

 

It isn't that hard of a request and I am sure you could build it into your program as a plugin for QuickTime or something!

 

Very disappointing... also I am sad to see you have yet to add multipass option to Roxio Popcorn for for iPod export.

Edited by OSMacintosh

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The reason for the complaint is because I am very excited about using Roxio Popcorn because Elgato introduced their Tubro 264... which enhances H.264 encodings.. this hardware enhancement doesn't work with Handbrake. So I am really trying my best to see why Roxio hasn't implemented these additions yet (Dolby Pro Logic II or even I)?

 

Now more than ever Roxio have the ability to really make some sales from Handbrake users, because there is a lot of excitement about Elgato's Turbo Which will speed up Roxio's H.264 encoding (because they use QT for their encodings) by up to 2 to 4 times the current speed.

 

Roxio is the only program I know that uses QT to encode DVD's ... (and Turbo only enhances QT encodings of H.264). Thus, why I am sooo disappointed :( any suggestions?

Edited by OSMacintosh

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I mean I have tons of suggestions for people like me who love movies, and love keeping quality!

 

 

I mean not just Dolby Pro Logic I or II (hopefully both though) - (most important feature I think that needs to be added!)

 

I would personally love to see

 

Chapter Markers

and More Profiles for encoding in H.264 such as High Profile and if possible ALS (which is lossless)

 

I think we all can agree with Elgato making GREAT products such as Turbo I think we as customers have to help give them ideas to improve (not to sound mean trust me I do love Roxio always recommend them for DVD burning etc.) However I think they could do AMAZING things... and really blow people away. For so many people I know want a Application that does it all:

 

DVD burning

Digital Movie making (with HUGE features)

 

And Roxio I think could really deliver such a product!!

 

And Make a Fortune

 

 

Turbo won't work with Popcorn 1, 2 or Toast either. Currently it only works with Quicktime.

But support is coming soon from what I am aware of (which is GREAT) lol.

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Help me understand exactly what you're wishing you could do. Here's what I think it is.

 

You want to create H.264 videos from DVDs or VIDEO_TS folders that have 5.1 Dolby Digital or other audio that is more than the 2 channels you get from Popcorn. You want to use ElGato's new Turbo but it also just encodes 2-channel audio, right? The AppleTV spec I've read calls for AAC-LC audio up to 160 kbps. What I understand about AAC-LC audio is it is 2 channel. I'm a layman and not an expert at H.264 and AAC-LC so please correct any of my misundertandings. I also don't have or use Handbrake.

 

If my understanding is correct, how would you play Dolby Digital audio with a H.264 video if the AppleTV doesn't support it? Also, are you thinking that it should work to just extract the Dolby Digital audio and then add it back to a video track that is encoded in a different format? The Dolby Digital tracks on DVDs exceed the 160 kbps limit for AppleTV audio so some kind of re-encoding is required. Decoding each of six channels and re-encoding them at a lower bit rate could require expensive software. I don't know what Dolby labs charges for a license to encode 5.1 audio but I bet it is more than I want to pay.

 

It seems to me that the home video industry is going in several directions and its hard to predict what will survive. The Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats will be superior visually and sonically but it may be that too few people will care. For awhile even HDTV owners will be happy with anamorphic 16x9 video from standard definition DVDs.

 

I don't get the appeal of AppleTV. It's a pain to get video in the format that it plays and the audio is less than commercial DVDs. But having video that networks with computers and the Internet seems to excite some people.

 

Meanwhile, the HDTV DVR's are doing very well in the marketplace even though they allow only temporary storage. Get a Slingbox and the video from the DVR can be seen on a computer anywhere else via the Internet and no re-encoding is required. The Slingbox can also can control my DVD player. That makes more sense to me than an AppleTV.

 

So I'm out of step and probably out of touch. That's not unusual. But if high-quality surround sound is as important to you as it is for me the direction Apple has taken the AppleTV just isn't the way to go.

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Help me understand exactly what you're wishing you could do. Here's what I think it is.

 

You want to create H.264 videos from DVDs or VIDEO_TS folders that have 5.1 Dolby Digital or other audio that is more than the 2 channels you get from Popcorn. You want to use ElGato's new Turbo but it also just encodes 2-channel audio, right? The AppleTV spec I've read calls for AAC-LC audio up to 160 kbps. What I understand about AAC-LC audio is it is 2 channel. I'm a layman and not an expert at H.264 and AAC-LC so please correct any of my misundertandings. I also don't have or use Handbrake.

 

If my understanding is correct, how would you play Dolby Digital audio with a H.264 video if the AppleTV doesn't support it? Also, are you thinking that it should work to just extract the Dolby Digital audio and then add it back to a video track that is encoded in a different format? The Dolby Digital tracks on DVDs exceed the 160 kbps limit for AppleTV audio so some kind of re-encoding is required. Decoding each of six channels and re-encoding them at a lower bit rate could require expensive software. I don't know what Dolby labs charges for a license to encode 5.1 audio but I bet it is more than I want to pay.

 

It seems to me that the home video industry is going in several directions and its hard to predict what will survive. The Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats will be superior visually and sonically but it may be that too few people will care. For awhile even HDTV owners will be happy with anamorphic 16x9 video from standard definition DVDs.

 

I don't get the appeal of AppleTV. It's a pain to get video in the format that it plays and the audio is less than commercial DVDs. But having video that networks with computers and the Internet seems to excite some people.

 

Meanwhile, the HDTV DVR's are doing very well in the marketplace even though they allow only temporary storage. Get a Slingbox and the video from the DVR can be seen on a computer anywhere else via the Internet and no re-encoding is required. The Slingbox can also can control my DVD player. That makes more sense to me than an AppleTV.

 

So I'm out of step and probably out of touch. That's not unusual. But if high-quality surround sound is as important to you as it is for me the direction Apple has taken the AppleTV just isn't the way to go.

 

 

Thanks for your comment but this is what I mean... Dolby Pro Logic is stereo Sound, however when played through QuickTime it outputs 4.0 and even 5.1 sound depending on the Dolby Pro Logic version. Dolby Pro Logic Version 1 takes surround sound audio files puts them into stereo channels and then when played, they play as 4.0 sound. Dolby Pro logic II does the same thing as Pro logic I however it from stereo sound puts out 5.1.. from 2 channel sound.

 

DVDs are mainly in 5.1 sound the only way in a stereo format to keep its 5.1 sound is using Dolby Pro logic II,

There is re encoding done, for example on Handbrake you can select Dolby Pro Logic I or II and select it to be at 160 kbps AAC. (being as how AAC it will work on Apple TV and play out on Apple TV in surround sound because it has the ability to decode and playback surround sound files from encoded in Dolby Pro Logic thus iTunes Movies are Surround Sound)

 

By doing this you make Surround sound files from stereo sound... iTunes does this with there movies however there movies are in Dolby Pro Logic I thus, why Steve said his movies are surround sound. lol sorry it is a bit complicated

 

if the original is stereo sound Dolby Pro logic doesn't turn it into surround sound... it keeps it stero...

 

however if the original was 5.1 sound and you use Dolby Pro Logic II you get in 2 Channel sound 5.1 audio playback in devices and software that can decode that technology

 

Dolby Pro logic I however will take 5.1 down to 4.0 surround sound.... and does the same thing as II however only in 4.0 sound... once again sorry it is a complicated piece of technology Dolby Scientists are amazing.

 

That being said my question is why doesn't popcorn 2 support Dolby pro logic that way when you make movies with popcorn 2 it will output that AAC audio at 160 kpbs with 2 channels that way when played back on iTunes and QuickTime will output the 5.1 and in ipod play back as stereo being as how ipod isn't surround sound compatible. This will also allow for the Apple TV to also playback the surround sound in those stereo sound files because it is capable of outputting 5.1 sound.

 

Hope this helps... the whole point to me wanting this is because I feel with Turbo I can save a lot of time if roxio would support this verses using Handbrake which will not work with Turbo... Roxio Programs from what I am aware of will have support later on for Tubrio by Elgato making them faster than Handbrake I would imagine.

 

Now the person who told me Roxio doesn't support Pro Logic could be wrong this is why I am posting up all this information on it lol... I did call again and one person said it is Dolby pro logic output.. however he didn't know the version number. So does anyone know if Roxio's Popcorn supports Pro Logic sound? I am getting confused because I just got a different answer lol.... John can you help me here lol...

 

 

Sorry and I do appreciate all the feedback just trying to make Popcorn better,

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I appreciate your explanation and I can see that I'm largely unaware of how this all works. I'm presuming that because this is digital there are ways to encode the surround information within the two channels so that it is discrete and not just like the L-R (or was it L+R) pseudo surround that existed prior to Pro Logic. I guess that could be referred to as 3.0.

 

ElGato says the Turbo will export using its software from MPEG program streams including unencrypted DVD/HD DVD content. So why would you need Popcorn to do that instead of ElGato's software? Their description also says the Turbo's audio output is stereo, which to my thinking means only two channels. So it might not matter what anyone does with software if the limitation is in the hardware.

 

Do you know of a way to check a 2-channel AAC-LC file to determine how many discrete channels are coded in it?

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I appreciate your explanation and I can see that I'm largely unaware of how this all works. I'm presuming that because this is digital there are ways to encode the surround information within the two channels so that it is discrete and not just like the L-R (or was it L+R) pseudo surround that existed prior to Pro Logic. I guess that could be referred to as 3.0.

 

ElGato says the Turbo will export using its software from MPEG program streams including unencrypted DVD/HD DVD content. So why would you need Popcorn to do that instead of ElGato's software? Their description also says the Turbo's audio output is stereo, which to my thinking means only two channels. So it might not matter what anyone does with software if the limitation is in the hardware.

 

Do you know of a way to check a 2-channel AAC-LC file to determine how many discrete channels are coded in it?

 

Sadly no.. not that I am aware of other than testing it on Big Screen.. however I do not have an Apple TV yet, want to have one so making movies compatible (and convient).. the reason for using Popcorn is because it has better support for Video_TS folders etc.

 

Also I wounder if AAC-LC in quicktime automatically does dolby pro logic... this I am not sure of... if it does I would imagine Popcorn would encode the 5.1 channels in Dolby Pro logic (probably version 1 which is what apple movies are in on iTunes)... see confusing.

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Sadly no.. not that I am aware of other than testing it on Big Screen.. however I do not have an Apple TV yet, want to have one so making movies compatible (and convient).. the reason for using Popcorn is because it has better support for Video_TS folders etc.

 

Also I wounder if AAC-LC in quicktime automatically does dolby pro logic... this I am not sure of... if it does I would imagine Popcorn would encode the 5.1 channels in Dolby Pro logic (probably version 1 which is what apple movies are in on iTunes)... see confusing.

Have you read this article? A post in the Crunch forum sent me there. This is very interesting go me. Much to learn....

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Have you read this article? A post in the Crunch forum sent me there. This is very interesting go me. Much to learn....

 

lol yea that surround sound stuff is very very interesting to me to this is why I studied it a lot mostly in forums and research papers I did on Dolby and digital formats. I did talk with Apple extensively about the Apple TV and surround sound problem... it seems that most users are not using the digital optical out they are just using the component (AV) video output which they told me is not ideal for surround sound... which I never know about that before! Thanks for the artical I read a few things in it.. I love how he/she described Pro logic, and the difference between AC-3 which I still prefer over DTS due to almost everything supports AC-3.. and personally I can't hear a difference on my speakers.

 

 

Another neat thing is this it is Dolby... I think there logo funny 5.1 on the go

 

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/prologic_II.html

 

 

See I am not going to lie I am one of those "Quality freaks" which usually get yelled at on forums for requesting things like Apple lossless in .mov for Audio lol or even ALS which is lossless for H.264...

 

I love the idea of the new Digital age of movies because I personally love the convince and cannot see much difference with a high encoder such as H.264 (usually I make a huge bit rate though... nothing like the iPod because that isn't good enough to me at Roxio's single pass) I figure if Turbo will support Roxio and also that Turbo does similar things as Roxio's Popcorn 2 and the Audio is in ACC (Dolby Pro Logic) Than I have no problem using them!

 

I just think it would be nice to have that one program that makes like easier... unfortunately for people like me Roxio's Popcorn needs some work, I still wish that Elgato made there device work with Open source H.264 known as x.264 used in handbrake life would be so much easier. But wasting 3 to 4 hours on a movie is a lot of time when you can do it in half that time or more... with Turbo. Thus why I started my search to know what Roxio is using and I emailed Turbo about there Stereo as well lol...

 

I will defiantly finish the articals review up more this weekend (bookmarked)... maybe there is something I need to learn about.. for now I did email John about the audio... hopefully he will respond :) will just be a nice peace of mind to know it is Dolby Certified surround sound.

 

Thanks I really do appreciate your help/curiosity on the topic some people can be Rude about things on forums regarding quality in audio..

 

Thank again,

Edited by OSMacintosh

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SOLVED: After hours of tests... it looks like Popcorn 2 is Pro Logic... because I did some compressions and played them side by side with the DVD no audio difference that I could tell... either I am not able to hear the difference (which makes me worried lol) or it is in dead Pro Logic.. more than likely it is Pro Logic due to iTunes selling Pro Logic movies!

 

 

Thanks for all of you how were interested!!

 

Please if someone can argue this be sure to let me know!!!!!

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