BD-R playback at high risk

[shueardm]

A good friend of mine is a product manager at Pioneer Electronics and he has some diturbing news for me.

 

His latest Blu-ray player has no BD-R BDMV playback becasue they were forced to remove it.

In what looks like a new push by the studios, they are very unhappy about it (and so am I).

He also said that a new Panasonic model out shortly with HD audio will most likely also have the feature removed.

Guess which company is making this happen? SONY!!

I dont know if that means that they too will remove the feature from PS3 or what not. It would not surprise me to see them keep it all to themselves, hipocracy is not a word they understand.

 

The question is however, what of the royalties Roxio and Adobe have paid? I can see litigation down the track on this one.

[shueardm]

I posted some info in the Sony 300 BD-R thread. It seems to indicate that the 300 was developed with full BD-R support and that it may have been withdrawn at the last minute before launch.

 

 

This is whay my friend at Pioneer said too. "At the last minute they were forced to remove the BDMV on BD-R/E ability"

 

This is not looking good for us (or Roxio). This product is now as good as dead in the water if this is going to be the norm.

 

Anyone tried PS3 firmware 1.9? I'm too scared to try it. Once that goes, you know it's officially all over.

[Gilbert-Martin]

Now I just found a site with some Blu-ray specifications where it says BDAV is for BD-R and BDMV for BD-Rom. Does that mean the problem occurs only when ripping a regular Movie-BDRom, and then trying to burn it on a BD-R and play it, but not when producing my own HDV File, converted to MPEG2 and then burned on a BD-R? To ask it shortly again: Producing my own film on a BD-R uses the BDAV directory and therefore works on standalone BD players or are there difficulties to expect as well? Am not talking about players that generally do not support BD-R, like apparently the LG. Gosh this is all so confusing, its starting to suck...;-)

[gi7omy]

Well, leaving out Belgisch Direct Marketing Verbond or Bundesvereinigung Deutscher Musikverbände - try BD MoVie

[Gilbert-Martin]

One last aspect...or is it definately a BDMV directory, when a menue is being created? Cause of course I want to include a simple chapter menue on a BD just like I do on DVD projects in SD. Some suggest the BDAV is without any menue, well then I would not need the DVDitPro HD but could burn directly with Nero or so...

[plee]

One last aspect...or is it definately a BDMV directory, when a menue is being created? Cause of course I want to include a simple chapter menue on a BD just like I do on DVD projects in SD. Some suggest the BDAV is without any menue, well then I would not need the DVDitPro HD but could burn directly with Nero or so...

 

When we talked about \BDAV and \BDMV it's the directory structure the authoring app. produces. \BDAV should play on all machines but it is limited with no real menus. \BDMV is pretty much like DVD with menus, etc... but not all players supports this feature as it is optional in the BR specs. Most people would prefer the \BDMV format...

[DonHDV]

oops, duplicat post

[SS Scott]

BDMV is what most commercial BD discs are, but some also include BD-J (Java). you can do pop up menus with BDMV and button sounds and button states, but those are not currently supported in DVDit Pro HD. So, bottom line, BDMV is interactive Blu-ray on disc with menus, BDAV is HD video on Blu-ray disc with no menus. The issue here is that there is no way to differentiate "personal" BDMV content from "commercial" BDMV content, so if someone rips a movie and puts it on BD-R is looks just like a disc created with DVDit Pro HD. So then, how do you stop that ripping. You stop BD-R playback of discs with that structure. Hopefully won't happen, but studio pressure could make it so...

[shueardm]

BDMV is what most commercial BD discs are, but some also include BD-J (Java). you can do pop up menus with BDMV and button sounds and button states, but those are not currently supported in DVDit Pro HD. So, bottom line, BDMV is interactive Blu-ray on disc with menus, BDAV is HD video on Blu-ray disc with no menus. The issue here is that there is no way to differentiate "personal" BDMV content from "commercial" BDMV content, so if someone rips a movie and puts it on BD-R is looks just like a disc created with DVDit Pro HD. So then, how do you stop that ripping. You stop BD-R playback of discs with that structure. Hopefully won't happen, but studio pressure could make it so...

 

Are there any laws governing what the manufacturers can and can't support, or is this just a bit of "pressure" from some quaters?

 

The whole thing is very unfair to consumers.

Consumer buys program to make Blu-ray disc only to find out that 50% of players play disc and 50% don't!!

Consumer cry's foul to software company, software company passes the buck- claims it's not their fault (which it isn't) -but did said software company provide compatibility information pre-purchase? No, because they don't even really know themselves what is going on, today or tomorrow, it's up to users to beta test all the players and post information on forums.

 

Customer, after being told, it's up to the manufacturer, complains to said manufacturer that disc does not play in their $2000 player. Manufacturer representative then shows customer how the all the BDROM titles he has in hand play fine on the player. You did buy the player to play movies didn't you?

 

WHO will take responsibility?

[Gilbert-Martin]

When I recall it correctly, there was a similar issue with DVD+Rs - where the software added a DVD-Rom flag to the DVD+R. That way the player was deceived and "thought" it was a professional DVD-Rom and not a DVD-R which it wouldn't play.

Why not do that with Blu Rays as well? Maybe a good idea for DVDit Pro HD? Cause otherwise the sales for this program will drop down dramatically I'm afraid.

[Larry]

When I recall it correctly, there was a similar issue with DVD+Rs - where the software added a DVD-Rom flag to the DVD+R. That way the player was deceived and "thought" it was a professional DVD-Rom and not a DVD-R which it wouldn't play.

Why not do that with Blu Rays as well? Maybe a good idea for DVDit Pro HD? Cause otherwise the sales for this program will drop down dramatically I'm afraid.

Actually, that's a function of the burner hardware not software, where it can set the Book Type for +R/RW discs to be DVD-ROM. Players then read the disc as a DVD-ROM disc rather than a DVD+R/RW. Not all burners have that capability, and those that do usually have a utility so you can set which will be used. Then any time a software program writes to a a disc, the disc Book Type is set based on the drive's setting.

 

So while the idea is a good one, I don't know that it's something that can be done with the software. It may well come down to something the hardware needs to be capable of.

[plee]

Re "V3.0" or "V2.1" media: What makes it that: The physical discs or the version of software (ie DVDit Pro HD" that created the disc?

 

I believe it's the physical media...

[mmace]

Just read about all this on another forum, I'm gutted, I've splashed out on DVDit Pro HD and Premiere CS3 (for Encore CS3) as well as splashing out on a Blu-ray burner, these are now all useless to me as the playback of BD-R(E) with BDMV comes to a standstill

 

what a waste of money.

[cDynamics]

From Paidgeek...

 

First of all, for those who have been waiting for my follow-up post on this topic, thanks for your patience...

 

After doing some research, here is what I have been able to clarify.

 

Blu-ray players first manufactured after Spring of this year are required to support BD-RE v3.0 media (AACS enabled) for playback of recordings where copyright has been asserted (e.g. digital broadcast, managed copy from a Blu-ray movie and similar). These same players may playback authored content from other sources (e.g. home movies) where copyright is not asserted from either BD-RE V3.0 or v2.1 (currently available) media.

An exception was made for players produced before Spring this year such that they may playback authored BD movie content from BD-RE V2.1 media, even though they may not support V3.0 media. The PS3 is already fully compliant with the latest requirements. Other players may or may not be depending on current firmware revisions.

 

The simple summary is that a consumer can author their own content as they wish using currently available media and play it back on any player that was released prior to Spring 07' as well as any player released since that time, provided that the player can support BD-RE V3.0 media. If a newer player cannot yet support that media type, then BD-RE 2.1 support can be enabled as soon as firmware allows the player to do so.

 

The specifications are designed not to inconvenience any customer who wants to author content they own.

 

Well that sounds promising -- I thought BDMV was doomed, but now there's a fighting chance for the pro-sumer market to be able to author BD (with menus). It's crazy that I have been able to author HD-DVD for over 15 months (on standard DVD5 discs), and BD is still making these types of changes...

 

Regards,

George

[plee]

Just read about all this on another forum, I'm gutted, I've splashed out on DVDit Pro HD and Premiere CS3 (for Encore CS3) as well as splashing out on a Blu-ray burner, these are now all useless to me as the playback of BD-R(E) with BDMV comes to a standstill

 

what a waste of money.

 

From the thread on AVS Forum, "paidgeek" has been quoted...he's been a pretty reliable source.

 

Originally Posted by paidgeek

The menu capabilities of BDAV are minimal, but consumers will be able to use the full BDMV spec if they choose to, so long as they are using approved AACS recordable media.

 

Originally Posted by paidgeek

Blu-ray players were never supposed to support BDMV authored content using ordinary data type BD-R or BD-RE media. An exemption was made for a number of months so that available blank discs could be used for testing and other promotional activities; this exemption expired recently.

 

 

OK. Now when and where is this AACS media

[ERog]

BDMV is what most commercial BD discs are, but some also include BD-J (Java). you can do pop up menus with BDMV and button sounds and button states, but those are not currently supported in DVDit Pro HD. So, bottom line, BDMV is interactive Blu-ray on disc with menus, BDAV is HD video on Blu-ray disc with no menus. The issue here is that there is no way to differentiate "personal" BDMV content from "commercial" BDMV content, so if someone rips a movie and puts it on BD-R is looks just like a disc created with DVDit Pro HD. So then, how do you stop that ripping. You stop BD-R playback of discs with that structure. Hopefully won't happen, but studio pressure could make it so...

On AVS Forum, Talkstr8t claims that you can do menuing and graphical menus with BDAV and that BDMV is not required.

 

I did not think this to be the case. Can someone clarify this?

 

Also, here is my summary of the discussions I have seen on AVS Forum, based on Q&As with insiders like Paidgeek.

 

1) BDMV playback on BD-R/RE discs was "never supposed to be allowed", according to Paidgeek - but was only allowed temporarily to help studios test releases they were working on.

 

2) BDMV playback from BD-R/RE media is now Banned again on all new BD players shipping, since this "grace period" has ended.

 

3) The exception is AACS-approved BD-R/RE "3.0" media - which does not APPEAR to EXIST, yet! the specs do not even show up on the BD or AACS sites, showing only BDR 2.0 discs.

 

4) Players that cannot play back AACS-encoded BD-R/RE 3.0 media are NOT allowed to playback ANY BDMV content from any BD-R/RE media.

 

5) Since the spec doesn't seem to yet be finalized and the discs do not seem to yet exist - DO NOT get your hopes up.

 

This appears to be yet another example of comepltely ill-thought-out (or NOT thought out) Bluray specs screwing up the consumer...

 

Some of the info that talkstr8t has given on AVS which contradicted Paidgeek has now been shown to be incorrect.

 

I would put more stock in the summary of paidgeek's answers, above, than in what talkstr8t has stated here.

 

Just my 2 cents - nothing personal talkstr8t, I'm sure you MEAN well.

 

I've posted more information on the AVSForum thread. Here's my summary:

BD-R/-RE clarification

 

I've received permission to relay information I received from a CE vendor contact. Some of this slightly contradicts what might be interpreted from what paidgeek has posted; hopefully he'll be able to check with his sources and either confirm what I've posted or either of us will correct as required.

 

Most current Blu-ray players were shipped with "grace period" support where they weren't required to fully implement AACS on BD-R/-RE discs. In practice what this means on these players is that a BD-R/-RE disc authored with AACS copy protection will not play, while BD-R/-RE discs without AACS copy protection are permitted to play.

 

Now that the grace period is over players must either fully support AACS from BD-R/-RE, or they may not support BDMV from BD-R/-RE at all. If a player does support AACS from BD-R/-RE it may also support BDMV from non-AACS BD-R/-RE (just as many current players do). Therefore once AACS is fully supported from BD-R/-RE on a given player, the situation will be no different than it is today. Bear in mind that BD-R/-RE support is not required on a Blu-ray Disc player (just as DVD(+/-)R/RW support isn't required on a DVD player). However, I expect most future players will fully support BDMV from BD-R/-RE (with or without AACS). My contact says a firmware upgrade to the players recently released without BDMV BD-R/-RE support is technically possible, but hasn't yet been committed to.

 

Based on this explanation, I don't believe there is any change in BD-R/-RE media whatsoever, but that this is purely a firmware-related issue. I'm also told there's no obligation for vendors to firmware update players released during the grace period to remove the ability to playback BDMV from BD-R/-RE.

 

Hope this helps clarify things.

- Talk

[plee]

A good friend of mine is a product manager at Pioneer Electronics and he has some diturbing news for me.

 

His latest Blu-ray player has no BD-R BDMV playback becasue they were forced to remove it.

In what looks like a new push by the studios, they are very unhappy about it (and so am I).

He also said that a new Panasonic model out shortly with HD audio will most likely also have the feature removed.

Guess which company is making this happen? SONY!!

I dont know if that means that they too will remove the feature from PS3 or what not. It would not surprise me to see them keep it all to themselves, hipocracy is not a word they understand.

 

The question is however, what of the royalties Roxio and Adobe have paid? I can see litigation down the track on this one.

 

For me, it doesn't make sense since I believe it's in the specs (maybe Scott can confirm this) so technically the player is not meeting specs... Let's be honest, how many people are actually making BD-R's? Probably less than 2% of a small niche group as it is...something is fishy.

[Talkstr8t]

From the thread on AVS Forum, "paidgeek" has been quoted...he's been a pretty reliable source.

 

Originally Posted by paidgeek

The menu capabilities of BDAV are minimal, but consumers will be able to use the full BDMV spec if they choose to, so long as they are using approved AACS recordable media.

 

Originally Posted by paidgeek

Blu-ray players were never supposed to support BDMV authored content using ordinary data type BD-R or BD-RE media. An exemption was made for a number of months so that available blank discs could be used for testing and other promotional activities; this exemption expired recently.

OK. Now when and where is this AACS media

I've posted more information on the AVSForum thread. Here's my summary:

BD-R/-RE clarification

 

I've received permission to relay information I received from a CE vendor contact. Some of this slightly contradicts what might be interpreted from what paidgeek has posted; hopefully he'll be able to check with his sources and either confirm what I've posted or either of us will correct as required.

 

Most current Blu-ray players were shipped with "grace period" support where they weren't required to fully implement AACS on BD-R/-RE discs. In practice what this means on these players is that a BD-R/-RE disc authored with AACS copy protection will not play, while BD-R/-RE discs without AACS copy protection are permitted to play.

 

Now that the grace period is over players must either fully support AACS from BD-R/-RE, or they may not support BDMV from BD-R/-RE at all. If a player does support AACS from BD-R/-RE it may also support BDMV from non-AACS BD-R/-RE (just as many current players do). Therefore once AACS is fully supported from BD-R/-RE on a given player, the situation will be no different than it is today. Bear in mind that BD-R/-RE support is not required on a Blu-ray Disc player (just as DVD(+/-)R/RW support isn't required on a DVD player). However, I expect most future players will fully support BDMV from BD-R/-RE (with or without AACS). My contact says a firmware upgrade to the players recently released without BDMV BD-R/-RE support is technically possible, but hasn't yet been committed to.

 

Based on this explanation, I don't believe there is any change in BD-R/-RE media whatsoever, but that this is purely a firmware-related issue. I'm also told there's no obligation for vendors to firmware update players released during the grace period to remove the ability to playback BDMV from BD-R/-RE.

 

Hope this helps clarify things.

- Talk

[DonHDV]

From Paidgeek...

 

The simple summary is that a consumer can author their own content as they wish using currently available media and play it back on any player that was released prior to Spring 07' as well as any player released since that time, provided that the player can support BD-RE V3.0 media. If a newer player cannot yet support that media type, then BD-RE 2.1 support can be enabled as soon as firmware allows the player to do so.

 

Re "V3.0" or "V2.1" media: What makes it that: The physical discs or the version of software (ie DVDit Pro HD" that created the disc?

[SS Scott]

I have no first hand info. on the issue. I do however know that BDMV on BD-R/RE is an optional part of the spec. The conventional wisdom was always that if some of the manufacturers supported it, all of them would eventually follow. Why not. That said, if the copying thing is becoming an issue, the best way to make it a non-issue is to just pressure the CE manufacturers to shut down BDMV on BD-R.

 

If you've got a player that is working well for you, I would avoid the updates until you know what they do to playback.

[tarkken]

I only went down Blu-Ray because it was available, and it looked like it had the legs to win - plus there were firmware updates coming/working, etc. The year started off well and promising.

 

I own Roxio, CS3 and 2 Sony Vaio laptops, specifically for cutting Blu-Ray content.

 

This sounds like the beginning of the end of the format wars - Blu Ray has won, and what you get with it is a fat gloating emperor...

 

What a shame and disappointment. Can't someone stick a class-action out there?

[ERog]

I posted some info in the Sony 300 BD-R thread. It seems to indicate that the 300 was developed with full BD-R support and that it may have been withdrawn at the last minute before launch.

[plee]

From Paidgeek...

 

First of all, for those who have been waiting for my follow-up post on this topic, thanks for your patience...

 

After doing some research, here is what I have been able to clarify.

 

Blu-ray players first manufactured after Spring of this year are required to support BD-RE v3.0 media (AACS enabled) for playback of recordings where copyright has been asserted (e.g. digital broadcast, managed copy from a Blu-ray movie and similar). These same players may playback authored content from other sources (e.g. home movies) where copyright is not asserted from either BD-RE V3.0 or v2.1 (currently available) media.

An exception was made for players produced before Spring this year such that they may playback authored BD movie content from BD-RE V2.1 media, even though they may not support V3.0 media. The PS3 is already fully compliant with the latest requirements. Other players may or may not be depending on current firmware revisions.

 

The simple summary is that a consumer can author their own content as they wish using currently available media and play it back on any player that was released prior to Spring 07' as well as any player released since that time, provided that the player can support BD-RE V3.0 media. If a newer player cannot yet support that media type, then BD-RE 2.1 support can be enabled as soon as firmware allows the player to do so.

 

The specifications are designed not to inconvenience any customer who wants to author content they own.

[tarkken]

If you've got a player that is working well for you, I would avoid the updates until you know what they do to playback.

 

 

I agree - but it all makes it pretty impossible for us to honestly market a Blu-Ray product to customers... What a let down on Sony's end. It's infuriating actually... I would consciously boycott them if I thought it would do any good.

 

Of course what should get them in line (or sued): THEY SELL THE #$^@ BURNERS AND MEDIA!!!!

[Gilbert-Martin]

Please, what is BD-R BDMV? All I know is BD-R or BD-RE, but what about that BDMV? Am planning to produce a simple BD-R that runs on most stand alone players, so must plan on choosing a format that will work.

[Talkstr8t]

On AVS Forum, Talkstr8t claims that you can do menuing and graphical menus with BDAV and that BDMV is not required.

 

I did not think this to be the case. Can someone clarify this?

From InterVideo/Corel:

WinDVD BD was the first product of its kind to provide a complete navigation and playback solution for the Blu-ray format, including BDAV (video file in the BD format) menu navigation.

Further, while I can't post the actual spec here, I can point you to this patent which excerpts part of the spec, including discussion of BDAV menu and playlist support.

Also, here is my summary of the discussions I have seen on AVS Forum, based on Q&As with insiders like Paidgeek.

 

2) BDMV playback from BD-R/RE media is now Banned again on all new BD players shipping, since this "grace period" has ended.

Only if they can't support playback of AACS-protected content from BD-RE 3.0 / BD-R 2.0 media. If they do support this they can playback BDMV from all media.

5) Since the spec doesn't seem to yet be finalized and the discs do not seem to yet exist - DO NOT get your hopes up.

The spec has been final for some time. It's the player implementations which don't all fully support the spec yet, hence a few players which don't currently support BD-R/RE BDMV content (but are likely to upon firmware updates).