Jump to content
  • 0

Gaps/pops Between Tracks


dinsdalep2004

Question

I'm having a frustrating problem when burning CD's using Toast 6.1.1 in DAO mode. I have gaps set to "0 sec" (for all but the first track) but always end up with audible gaps or glitches between tracks - most noticable in recordings where the track break falls in the middle of a loud passage of sound.

 

I have tried everything I can think of - reset preferences, burned from a disc image, burned at the slowest speed, upgraded the program I'm using to create the AIFF files (SoundStudio 2.2.4). In a nutshell, the person posting in the thread linked below has the exact same problems I'm facing - the only difference is that he's using Amadeus rather than SoundStudio:

 

http://forums.macosxhints.com/showthread.p...&threadid=47581

 

I tried adjusting the edits to conform with zero-crossing points, as suggested in that thread, and it helped some problems but the gaps remain and are still audible in many cases. Also, like the user in the above thread, the problem did not exist until recently - and I, too, have upgraded to QT7 (although I can't swear that change marked the start of the problem).

 

I've gone back and forth for 24 hours with a Roxio support tech who hasn't been much help, but he was adamant that Toast 6.1.1 is fully compatible with QT7. He also seems convinced that SoundStudio is the culprit, but when rejoining the split tracks in SoundStudio, I see no gaps - but when joining two tracks burned with Toast and viewing them in SoundStudio, the gap is plainly visible.

 

Anyone solved this problem or have any ideas?

 

- John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

Test 1. Two AIFF tracks that never saw Sound Studio. Result: no gap between tracks.

Test 2. The .sd2f file from test 1 with the tracks split by markers with Sound Studio: Result: no gap between tracks.

Test 3: Pasting the two tracks together in Sound Studio and then splitting by marker. Result: Gap appears between tracks.

Test 4: Removing the gap from Test 3's .sd2f file in Sound Studio and splitting again by marker. Result: Gap appears between tracks, thereby proving my post false.

Test 5: Using AIFFs saved by Peak LE 4 that never saw Sound Studio. Result: Gap appears between tracks, thereby proving more of my previous post false.

Test 6: Trimming and exporting to the HDD the two original tracks in CD SpinDoctor 3, then using those in Toast. Result: No gaps between tracks.

Test 7: Using the Sound Studio-exported files with CD Spin Doctor and then exporting them for use in Toast. Result: Gap appears but is about one-fourth as long.

Test 8: Using the Sound Studio-exported tracks with Jam 6. Result: no gap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's some excellent and thorough testing! I've been doing a bunch more on my own, and like you found that importing files (never touched by SoundStudio) using SpinDoctor 2 also adds a gap at the end of a track. Basically, no matter how I import a track into Toast 6, whenever I export it again and compare the two files, it comes out slightly longer!

 

I also tried opening a sound file with Audacity, splitting and exporting part as a .wav, putting that into Toast and exporting again. Sure enough, each time a gap of anywhere from .001 to .013 seconds got added at the end.

 

I guess I can try upgrading to Jam 6, but it's going to be awfully disappointing if it still adds these gaps.

 

- John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What this all comes down to is math. CD are calculated in frames per second. 1 second equals 75 frames. Sound Studio edits using milliseconds which is much more accurate then CD frames. Peak has support for CD frames in the display. Sound Studio doesn't.

 

Toast uses frames per second to calculate time in Audio format, because that is what is being burned. If you have a file that is accurate to the ms, then you will see a gap at the end. However, I never have gaps in between tracks.

 

If you edit the track to the second or use Peak and set it to CD frame accurate, the problem will go away. Sound Studio really should have this option. I would contact them and ask for this feature. Should be easy to add since they have frames/per second for Video (20, 25 and 24)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What this all comes down to is math. CD are calculated in frames per second. 1 second equals 75 frames. Sound Studio edits using milliseconds which is much more accurate then CD frames. Peak has support for CD frames in the display. Sound Studio doesn't.

 

Toast uses frames per second to calculate time in Audio format, because that is what is being burned. If you have a file that is accurate to the ms, then you will see a gap at the end. However, I never have gaps in between tracks.

 

If you edit the track to the second or use Peak and set it to CD frame accurate, the problem will go away. Sound Studio really should have this option. I would contact them and ask for this feature. Should be easy to add since they have frames/per second for Video (20, 25 and 24)

 

THANK YOU!!! Sound Studio does not have this feature, but Audacity does, and I've just tried it out and it works like a charm! What a relief!

 

:)

 

- John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One final note - it didn't work on every track the first time, so I compared file sizes again and discovered something interesting:

 

Original - 2:12.47

Post-Toast - 2:12.48

 

Original - 2:04.40

Post-Toast - 2:04.42

 

etc.

 

It seems Toast doesn't even accept something at the start of any old frame, it has to be a multiple of three! Otherwise 1 or 2 frames of silence get added to fill in the track. I re-did the edit points one last time, and voila!

 

Thanks so much for all your help!

 

- John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have Sound Studio 2.2.4 so I can try to replicate the issue on my Macs. Let me know if there was anything special about your workflow. I'll just import and trim some AIFF files with Sound Studio and then drag them to Toast 6.1.1 for creating a gapless audio CD. I also will test this with Toast 7, Jam 6 and anything else I find laying about the room. Give me a day or two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have Sound Studio 2.2.4 so I can try to replicate the issue on my Macs. Let me know if there was anything special about your workflow. I'll just import and trim some AIFF files with Sound Studio and then drag them to Toast 6.1.1 for creating a gapless audio CD. I also will test this with Toast 7, Jam 6 and anything else I find laying about the room. Give me a day or two.

 

Thanks! The original sources varied - one was a live recording ripped from a CD using iTunes 6.0.1, one was demuxed from a DVD using MPEG Streamclip. I split the resulting AIFF files into individual tracks using Sound Studio, dragged them into Toast 6.1.1 and did the burn using DAO with no gaps between tracks. I suggest making the edit points during a loud bit of applause, as that'll make the gaps easier to hear.

 

After comparing two rejoined original files and the corresponding rejoined Toast-burned-and-reripped files, I noticed the lengths differed by .01 seconds, although the gap looks to be about .002 seconds:

 

gap.jpg

 

- John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The source of the problem is with Sound Studio. I am able to recreate the issue using Sound Studio but not with other applications such as Bias Peak. I notice that when I extract an audio CD track with Sound Studio it adds silence to the start and end of the track. However, cropping that off doesn't seem to eliminate the issue when Toast 6 or 7 tries to burn those with 0-second gaps. The only way I could eliminate the gaps with Sound Studio was to open the Toast-saved .sd2f file in Sound Studio, find and delete the gaps and place a marker at those points. I then chose Sound Studio's Split by Markers command to save the file as individual AIFF tracks. When I used those tracks in Toast 6 there was no gap between the tracks.

 

I'm not a software engineer so I have no clue what is happening with the Sound Studio files when you choose Save or Save As instead of Split by Markers, but the former does add about a one-tenth of a second gap at the start of the track when brought into Toast. I call this a Sound Studio bug because the problem isn't there when I drag tracks directly to Toast from a live CD or when I use Peak.

 

I hope this helps you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks! The original sources varied - one was a live recording ripped from a CD using iTunes 6.0.1, one was demuxed from a DVD using MPEG Streamclip. I split the resulting AIFF files into individual tracks using Sound Studio, dragged them into Toast 6.1.1 and did the burn using DAO with no gaps between tracks. I suggest making the edit points during a loud bit of applause, as that'll make the gaps easier to hear.

 

After comparing two rejoined original files and the corresponding rejoined Toast-burned-and-reripped files, I noticed the lengths differed by .01 seconds, although the gap looks to be about .002 seconds:

 

- John

Thanks John. One thing you can check is if the file audio track from the DVD was 48 khz. Toast would need to resample this to 44.1 khz and that may be a source of the problem. I'll be checking it, too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks John. One thing you can check is if the file audio track from the DVD was 48 khz. Toast would need to resample this to 44.1 khz and that may be a source of the problem. I'll be checking it, too.

 

 

I always try to remember to resample everything to 44.1 before burning (I do speed-adjusting on some things which alters the sample rate), but just to be sure I double-checked: these files are all 44.1 khz.

 

- John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The source of the problem is with Sound Studio. I am able to recreate the issue using Sound Studio but not with other applications such as Bias Peak. I notice that when I extract an audio CD track with Sound Studio it adds silence to the start and end of the track. However, cropping that off doesn't seem to eliminate the issue when Toast 6 or 7 tries to burn those with 0-second gaps. The only way I could eliminate the gaps with Sound Studio was to open the Toast-saved .sd2f file in Sound Studio, find and delete the gaps and place a marker at those points. I then chose Sound Studio's Split by Markers command to save the file as individual AIFF tracks. When I used those tracks in Toast 6 there was no gap between the tracks.

 

I'm not a software engineer so I have no clue what is happening with the Sound Studio files when you choose Save or Save As instead of Split by Markers, but the former does add about a one-tenth of a second gap at the start of the track when brought into Toast. I call this a Sound Studio bug because the problem isn't there when I drag tracks directly to Toast from a live CD or when I use Peak.

 

I hope this helps you.

 

Thanks very much for trying this out! I'm still confused, though. I *was* using Split by Markers to break up the AIFF file into tracks, and still got those gaps after burning in Toast. And rejoining the original files in Sound Studio shows no gaps, so it can't be Sound Studio that's adding them.

 

Or are you saying that the gap is added by Toast when ANY Sound Studio file is dragged into it? If so, how did you eliminate the gap between the tracks? You say you went into the .sd2f file and deleted the gaps. But if you then save it as split AIFF Sound Studio files, aren't you back to square one? Or is it the act of dragging the files into Toast that adds the gap?

 

Also, at the beginning you say extracting an audio CD track with SS adds a gap - but I wasn't using SS to extract it from the CD, I used iTunes for that and opened the resulting file in SS (and in another case, it was sound ripped from a DVD with MPEG Streamclip).

 

- John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It IS the very act of dragging it into Toast that creates the gap! Try this:

 

1) Create a short AIFF file in Sound Studio (make sure it ends in the middle of some noise/sound, not with silence).

2) Drag it into the Toast window.

3) Select that track in Toast and choose "Export Audio" (under the "Disc" menu).

4) Open the newly-saved file in Sound Studio and examine the very end close-up. See the gap!

 

:)

 

- John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thinking it might be a Sound Studio compatibility issue, I just downloaded another sound editor (Audacity) and tried with that (creating a file, dragging it into Toast, exporting and checking for gaps) and the problem persists. Then there's the fellow on the forum I linked to earlier who was having the same issue using Amadeus, not Sound Studio. So it's clearly a Toast problem. It doesn't seem to make a difference if I import the files into Toast using the "add" button rather than dragging - either way, it's adding that gap.

 

- John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...