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NTLDR is missing after installing EMC 10


mindy01

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Bought EMC 10 when I got the upgrade email, through the download service. Installed it no problem and began to poke around a bit. No issues. Then came back yesterday and noticed that nothing was working from the "web" style front-page. When I tried to click on the caputure video, nothing happend. Other links did not work as well and some threw up error messages. Decided to reinstall again. After the rebott, my Windows XP wouldn't come up, left with a message of "NTLDR is missing, press any key to restart" at a black screen. Could not get around this, had to google search, get a file, reboot from floppy, etc. Whole workaround. Did a system restore back before EMC 10 and everything was fine. Tried install again. Rebot machine and NTLDR gone again. Finally got back to XP and got rid of EMC 10, went back and reinstalled EMC 9. I am asking for refund of EMC 10.

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Here's a little more information on when this problem occurs.

 

I just did a full deinstall of EMC 10 because of the problem with EMC 10 not starting, http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?...=29265&st=0 . I had a directory window open and watched C:\ to see when and what would happen.

 

Nothing happened to corrupt c:\ during the deinstall. Then I started the clean install and lo and behold, at about the 10% point of the install (just estimating the green bar's position), all the files in C:\ disappeared, except for hiberfil.sys. Luckily, I had copied all the files to a backup directory (from where my shutdown.bat would have restored them). I manually put them back.

 

I am running Windows XP, SP2, with 2 GB ram. All patches are applied. I have plenty of free disk space (about 50 Gbytes on C:). It is fully patched.

 

My batch file is pretty simple

===========================

echo off

rem shutdown.bat

rem 10/24/2007

rem check if boot files are present and if not, restore

rem C:\BOOT FILES-SAVE\ is my directory with a copy of the the C:\ files

 

if not exist c:\boot.ini copy "C:\BOOT FILES-SAVE\boot.ini" c:\

if not exist c:\ntldr copy "C:\BOOT FILES-SAVE\ntldr" c:\

if not exist c:\ntdetect.com copy "C:\BOOT FILES-SAVE\ntdetect.com" c:\

 

exit

===========================

 

I used the group policy editor, gpedit.msc, to specify that it should run at shutdown.

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Tom,

MFT fragmentation only causes an ntldr missing error

IF

the ROOT directory of the boot drive (C:\) has too many files in it which causes entries in the root index of the mft containing the root folder to be fragmented when it is expanded. Simply having to many files on your drive won't do it even if the mft is fragmented.

In that case the ntldr (because of re-alphabetizing of the directory listings in the mft root folder index) may end up in an index fragment other than the first one. That will cause the ntldr missing error.

Just having a fragmented mft in and of itself will not do it. Also the expansion of the mft with the addition of new files to the hd does not in itself mean the mft will fragment. It depends on other factors too.

 

From MS: http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=320397

"This problem may occur if the MFT root folder is severely fragmented. If the MFT root folder contains many files, the MFT may become so fragmented that an additional allocation index is created. Because files are mapped alphabetically in the allocation indexes, the NTLDR file may be pushed to the second allocation index. When this occurs, you receive the error message that is described in the "Symptoms" section of this article."

 

STATUS

"Microsoft has confirmed that this is a problem in the Microsoft products that are listed at the beginning of this article.

This problem was first corrected in Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 2.

This problem was first corrected in Microsoft Windows 2000 Service Pack 4.

Note If you install the Windows XP service pack or the Windows 2000 service pack, you will not resolve problems with an existing volume. You must run the utility to update the bootcode separately. The service pack will only write the correct bootcode for new volumes."

 

As stated in that article the problem is corrected in xp sp2

and will not affect a volume newly formatted under that os version.

So again as to my previous post, a number of the ppl in this post did new installs or re-installs which would lead to new mft tables not affected by this problem.

 

So before you will know if this is the solution you must know the following things

 

a. What os version of xp (was it xp SR2)

b. do each of these ppl have LOTS of files in their root folder (cause that's what it would take to bump the ntldr to the second index)?

Note: I don't think you can determine exactly how many files it would take to cause this since there are a number of variables involved such as the size, number of them, names (alphabetizing), size of the HD (affects placement of original mft record).

c. Did the ppl who re-installed in this thread after it happened do a format during that install?

(cause if they did then this is not what caused their problem since a new unfragmented mft would have been created if they did format)

 

Lastly the diskkeeper article you linked in your post is for NT4 not XP. I know it still refers to ntfs but NT4 had it's own set of problems with the missing ntldr that XP does not. Just using too large a partition for installation in nt could cause this if the boot files were updated by a ms patch at a later time.

 

Now I'm not saying this is NOT the cause. but you need more info before you can know for sure.

 

a. XP SP2

b. not sure how many files were in C:\ root the first time, but know that the next 4 times there were only 3 files

c. no format, just an install

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Tom2,

 

90% full?! How big is your hard disk?

 

We need to determine if the ntldr etc are actually missing and when they are removed or if you just think they are missing?

 

Did you look for them and find them missing after installing but before rebooting (while still in windows)?

 

or did you reboot then get the ntldr missing error and assume they are missing?

 

To see these files in windows explorer (before rebooting) you must have some settings enabled/disabled in windows explorer so run it and select Tools->Folder Options->View then make sure that "show hidden files and folders" is selected. "Hide extentions for known file types" is UNchecked and "Hide protected operating systems files" is UNchecked (click yes to ignore the warning and proceed) then click OK. Otherwise you might not see everything you need to in C:\

 

I'm assuming that since you keep getting your system back you have a bootable floppy or cd or something and have saved the boot files before-hand and copy them back or something. If that is the case then also copy the c:\windows\system32\attrib.exe command to the floppy too for the check after the install and reboot.

 

2. but if not do the following then

 

a. make a folder on C:\ called boot and COPY the ntldr, ntdetect.com, boot.ini into the folder.

 

Also copy the attrib.exe command into the folder too (it can be found in c:\windows\system32 assuming windows is the name of your windows dir)

 

b. Make a bootable floppy and after doing so try booting off it to make sure it works. Info on how to do that can be found Start->help and support. Click on index and enter format then look under "formatting disks/proceedure for" Note: The help is unclear that you must right click on the drive you want to format then select format OR click on it and go to file->format on the menu

 

Now if your not sure if the files were there or not or unsure at what point they went missing (I hate to ask you this but) could you please try again and after installing but before rebooting bring up windows explorer and see what files are in C:\ (boot drive). If they are NOT there after installing but before rebooting COPY them back before rebooting.

 

It wouldn't hurt to also check how much disk space you have free at that point.

 

Now if they are there then reboot and if you get the ntldr missing can you see if they are really on c:\ still or not.

 

So...if the ntldr is missing after installing and rebooting then boot off the floppy and issue the following commands

 

C:

 

cd \

 

\boot\attrib.exe

 

Please report back if you see anything in C:\ or not.

 

Then to get your system back do this

 

cd \boot

 

attrib.exe -h -s -r *.*

 

copy *.* c:\

 

cd \

 

attrib.exe +h +s +r ntldr

 

attrib.exe +h +s +r ntdetect.com

 

attrib.exe +h +s boot.ini

 

remove the floppy and reboot to windows.

 

After doing so you can delete the attrib.exe in c:\

 

Let us know what you find here. This will either rule out the mft issue or mean it needs to be investigated further.

 

Thanks for your excellent suggestions. I have posted several times here, so will save the space by not repeating it now. I have already done most of what you suggested, though. The files are indeed gone.

 

The 90% full hard drive is a 20Gb on a laptop. EMC10 loaded OK on that one and was not associated with any files going missing.

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Here's a little more information on when this problem occurs.

 

I just did a full deinstall of EMC 10 because of the problem with EMC 10 not starting, http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?...=29265&st=0 . I had a directory window open and watched C:\ to see when and what would happen.

 

Nothing happened to corrupt c:\ during the deinstall. Then I started the clean install and lo and behold, at about the 10% point of the install (just estimating the green bar's position), all the files in C:\ disappeared, except for hiberfil.sys. Luckily, I had copied all the files to a backup directory (from where my shutdown.bat would have restored them). I manually put them back.

 

I am running Windows XP, SP2, with 2 GB ram. All patches are applied. I have plenty of free disk space (about 50 Gbytes on C:). It is fully patched.

 

My batch file is pretty simple

===========================

echo off

rem shutdown.bat

rem 10/24/2007

rem check if boot files are present and if not, restore

rem C:\BOOT FILES-SAVE\ is my directory with a copy of the the C:\ files

 

if not exist c:\boot.ini copy "C:\BOOT FILES-SAVE\boot.ini" c:\

if not exist c:\ntldr copy "C:\BOOT FILES-SAVE\ntldr" c:\

if not exist c:\ntdetect.com copy "C:\BOOT FILES-SAVE\ntdetect.com" c:\

 

exit

===========================

 

I used the group policy editor, gpedit.msc, to specify that it should run at shutdown.

Nice work... No sarcasm.. Nice job.

 

However... Like I said earlier, way above the head of most users (no offense to any users reading this thread).

 

Maybe Roxio should use your bat file as an update & pay you for it.... Say a buck per download.

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Here is an update on my dead PC:

 

I did not have an install disk for XP, so I contacted a tech. He told me that Roxio changes the drive letter names, leading to problems like the one I was experiencing. I told him that the System Recover was hanging, and he said that it might be due to the fact that Roxio renamed the D:\drive (Recovery drive).

 

I planned to have him come over and try to get my data back, and then format the hard drive and reinstall Windows. In the meantime, after crunching all day, the System Recovery finally completed and offered me a System Restore point. I got my system back, and all seems fine. I have uninstalled EMC 10, and requested a refund.

 

 

However------

Before EMC 10, my DVD drive used to be L: and now it is F:, My CD drive was F: and now it is E:. My flash drive for my camera card used to be I: and now it is H:.

 

So, what has been said about this being dangerous software and renaming drives is true.

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INow, for the facts.

I have 3 hard drives C, D, E, none of which have been renamed. No SCSI.

 

It's possible for the drive letters to be in a different (other-than-standard) order for other reasons

than just the user renaming them.

Never-the-less let's assume they weren't.

It's likely that there are other variables that may be involved besides just the ones I brought out

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Nice work... No sarcasm.. Nice job.

 

However... Like I said earlier, way above the head of most users (no offense to any users reading this thread).

 

Maybe Roxio should use your bat file as an update & pay you for it.... Say a buck per download.

But they could just copy it from here for free. :lol:

Really, good job on the bat file.

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The puzzle for me is why the "Gurus" are being so defensive about this, resorting to insults rather than proper open discussion which one should be able to expect from people with their experience. Why do Roxio accept that there is a problem, when they do not?

 

Regards,

This is a question that will plague mankind for years to come. (Crimson Tide - 1995) :D

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If anyone is being insulting here - let's look at some points

 

1: This did NOT happen in any beta

2: This did NOT occur in the immediate time frame of the release of EMC 10

3: MS have admitted there is a problem with ntldr (for whatever reason is immaterial, they say there IS a problem)

4: There have been several MS updates between the release of EMC 10 and the appearance of this fault

5: The ONLY people pointing fingers and talking lawsuits are a small few - it is NOT the case in the majority of users

6: Roxio have repeatedly said they are investigating it and they will release a fix when they find out the cause. I would presume that MS is also involved in this

7: The onloy reported incidents are from XP 32 bit - it never occurred in the 64 bit OS (and I did use it in that with no problems, both in Beta and release)

 

To prove a case in law, it has to be proven that the fault is endemic - that it hits all (or even a substantial proportion) of people - this is not the case here

 

Constructive criticism is fine - blanket 'It's all your fault and I'm insulted if you say otherwise' doesn't even come close to being constructive

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ADG

 

Just a fyi - the ntldr problem never showed on the beta - and for some reason didn't appear until some time after the program was released. What happened, how and why is a mystery - but something did. MS also had a KB article on ntldr loss (they claimed it was down to a fragmented MFT) so your guess is as good as anyone's what got messed up

 

Anyway, there is a patch out for EMC 10 which should correct it on subsequent uninstalls and re-installs

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Thanks. Yes, I've seen the MS KB and of course that's nonsense. But just as an aside, I defrag all partitions weekly and do an MFT (offline) defrag at least once a month (or more if suggested by PD during the regular defrag). As for the problem not rearing it's head until after the program's release - well, that raises a few questions in my mind about the testing process - but okay :)

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So, what has been said about this being dangerous software and renaming drives is true.

 

I have seen 2 instances of this now. Why it happens, who knows, but your issue is an isolated one.

 

Now, in Version 6, there were hundreds of posts with folks having this problem. I was one of them, and I moved up to EMC 7, at that time. I have EMC 10 running on my computer now.

 

I know how frustrated you are. Been there.

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I asked because I was / am curious if the download has been fixed. Probably lots of retail DVD's out there on the shelves that would not have a fix assuming that it has been fixed.

I don't know if Roxio has changed the download or not. I do know that when I downloaded, it was 2 separate files (Program and Content). I saw a veryr recent entry here somewhere that indicated their download had these 2 combined. So they may have changed something, but Roxio seems to be reluctant to give out much information in a general way. They had everyone guessing about the only update to EMC-10 for some time before any information came out regarding it's purpose (the NTLDR problem fix).

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I too have had an "isolated" problem with EMC10.

 

NTLDR, NTDETECT and BOOT.INI were all removed from my C drive. After booting from a downloaded disk, I copied the files back to the C drive and rebooted it several times without a problem. I un-installed EMC10 and re-installed, with the same results. This time, I also copied the files to another folder on the C drive. I un-installed both EMC7 and EMC10 to see if there was an interference. Booted ok over a few days. Reloaded EMC10 and checked the C drive before rebooting. Yep, the 3 files were missing. Copied them back and rebooted fine.

 

Now, it has been said that EMC10 can't do this. I find it interesting that no other program that I load does this and EMC10 has done it 3 times. This just has to be more than a coincidence, even thought it can't happen.

 

Addition:

Just received a reply from Roxio "Support" (that's an oxymoron). One sentence telling me that these were important Windows files. Duh???? I sort of figured that out on my own when my computer would not boot. No other help offered.

 

I am not sure these support people read the entire message, or maybe it is a language syntax issue.

 

If someone from Sonic/Roxio is monitoring this, you really need to consider not outsourcing support.

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Again - none of my boot loaders were affected and my default boot order is GRUB (choice of Linux or Windows), Vista boot (choice of Vista or older Windows) and finally the XP boot.ini (choice of 32 or 64 bit XP).

If this was a common occurence, I'd expect at least one of those boot loaders to go belly up - but none did

 

Did it occur to you that the fact you are using GRUB for a boot loader may have something to do with why you have not been affected? That is a completely non-standard windows boot setup.

 

----------------------------------------

I've read all 13 of your posts in this thread and I'm still trying to figure you out.

You seem REALLY invested in this NOT being roxio. Even more so than the Roxio guys that posted and who at least are willing to ask for more info before they dismiss it outright.

 

For instance you've posted 13 times in this thread so far. Two of them were neutral and 11 of them said basically the same thing... 'It's not EMC10 because I've never seen this problem myself.'

 

I think you've made your point and probably don't need to mention it anymore.

So let's just agree to disagree on this.

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This is a question that will plague mankind for years to come. (Crimson Tide - 1995) :D

FYI the ending in Crimson Tide was just like the movie, pure Hollywood Fiction. It would have never ended like that in real life!

 

Now what is "bothering the Guru's" is that a bunch of semi-computer savvy people come along with some Folk Healing solutions and tout them as though they were gospel.

 

You do not have access to the program code files, you have never in your life written anything as complex as a Burning Suite, but your ignorance allows you to think you can outsmart all of Roxio's programmers… Likewise it is the same lack of experience and knowledge that allows you to think that Real Programmers can go through millions of lines of program text and just fix it, all before first break!

 

I don't know what the recent "Update" is supposed to fix, but the fact that Roxio did come out with one is a clear indication that they are working on something!

 

So the real question becomes, "What have you done that was useful lately"? – Answer? Zip!

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Thanks for your excellent suggestions. I have posted several times here, so will save the space by not repeating it now. I have already done most of what you suggested, though. The files are indeed gone.

 

The 90% full hard drive is a 20Gb on a laptop. EMC10 loaded OK on that one and was not associated with any files going missing.

 

With a 90% full 20GB hard drive its a wonder you can do anything at all!

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It might be instructive if those on this thread that claim not to have the problem check what else is left in their root directory. It is not impossible that all unprotected files are gone, but that they have only the system files remaining.

 

I have installed, uninstalled, reinstalled EMC 10 many times (including during beta testing), and none of the files in the root directory have ever been deleted by it. That includes files with the following attributes:

A

HS

HSA

RHS

RHSA

 

The date stamps of some of those files (including those with just A) indicate that they were created when I last did a clean install of the OS (due to hard drive failure), in January 2007, long before EMC 10 came along.

Whilst, obviously, it is a very serious problem on some systems, it is not accurate to say it occurs on all systems. This not a 'guru being defensive' just a statement of fact.

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Now what is "bothering the Guru's" is that a bunch of semi-computer savvy people come along with some Folk Healing solutions and tout them as though they were gospel.

 

You do not have access to the program code files, you have never in your life written anything as complex as a Burning Suite, but your ignorance allows you to think you can outsmart all of Roxio's programmers… Likewise it is the same lack of experience and knowledge that allows you to think that Real Programmers can go through millions of lines of program text and just fix it, all before first break!

 

I don't know what the recent "Update" is supposed to fix, but the fact that Roxio did come out with one is a clear indication that they are working on something!

 

So the real question becomes, "What have you done that was useful lately"? – Answer? Zip!

 

Amazing! One abuse after another.

 

I commented above that some people seem to resort to insults rather than have proper open discussion. I rest my case, Your Honour.

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I hate to step in and comment at the risk of causing more flames, but I think a few things are being mixed up.

 

1) Yes, there are some Microsoft KBs about this, but the main point is that they explain how to recover when anything should delete those files. They do not say the MS has a bug that deletes them.

 

2) I kept a window open that watched the C:\ directory while doing an EMC10 install. I watched the files (in fact, all files in c:\) disappear while it was running. I had killed all other processes that could possibly conflict with the installation so the only things that could have deleted the files was the EMC installer. I knew to watch the directory because the deleted NTLDR had already bitten me once trying to install EMC10.

 

3) Roxio has published a patch that prevents it. The Roxio article is here >

http://kb.roxio.com/content/kb/General%20I...N?set-locale=en

note the comment in the article that says: "Important: After installing Easy Media Creator 10, it is recommended to run software manager for any available updates to prevent the issue such as "NTLDR is missing" from re-occurring. "

 

Of course, since you can't install the patch until after you have installed EMC10, it is too late and the damage is done.

 

4) I believe it does not strike everyone because the file attributes should be R(ead only)S(ystem)H(ide) and that, presumably, protects against the bug. I don't know why those files did not have those attributes set before on my system, but they certainly do now!

 

5) There are many many software bugs that hit only a subset of users. This does not mean that it is not a bug but shows how the many combinations of software products, and the order in which they were installed, causes different reactions.

 

I am trying to be constructive with these comments and I hope they are taken for what they are intended to be - helpful.

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Thanks for listening to the problems and taking a look into it.

 

I have read of an additional content file. When I did the download, there was only one file downloaded and I am not prompted to add any additional files after the install. Is there something else that should have downloaded with the file?

 

Is it possible that the install from CD is different from the downloaded file? Are the missing ntldr, etc only occuring with the downloaded file?

 

Forgot to ask if there is an easy way to copy the information of my computer setup to the signature block like many have or is it all typed in?

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Reading this thread through again, it is clear that the various "experts" have completely missed the point.

 

1. "NTLDR missing" is a symptom, not a root cause.

 

2. The root cause is that EMC10 Reinstallation deletes all files in the root (C:\) directory. The only "survivor" is pagefile.sys, which is protected by the Operating System.

 

Having experienced this myself, it is 100% repeatable every time EMC10 is reinstalled on my PC - and I've had to do it a lot of times.

 

Maybe that's the difference!!!

 

On my system all the named files are system protected and only to be seen, if I change my visibillity settings. But they show up grayed out. So I don't have that problem.

 

 

 

gebi

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If anyone is being insulting here - let's look at some points

 

1: This did NOT happen in any beta

2: This did NOT occur in the immediate time frame of the release of EMC 10

3: MS have admitted there is a problem with ntldr (for whatever reason is immaterial, they say there IS a problem)

4: There have been several MS updates between the release of EMC 10 and the appearance of this fault

5: The ONLY people pointing fingers and talking lawsuits are a small few - it is NOT the case in the majority of users

6: Roxio have repeatedly said they are investigating it and they will release a fix when they find out the cause. I would presume that MS is also involved in this

7: The onloy reported incidents are from XP 32 bit - it never occurred in the 64 bit OS (and I did use it in that with no problems, both in Beta and release)

Come on....

 

Our engineers have been able to replicate the issue in-house. I haven't been able to get more details from our engineers yet... they are still investigating the circumstances that cause the problem. While the vast majority of EMC 10 customers are able to install just fine, we understand that this is a serious problem for those who encounter it. The fix for the problem is to boot with a Windows OS CD (or another boot drive), then copy the boot files back to your boot disk. I'll provide more information as soon as I have it.

 

Tom

 

 

I am sure the whole "Court Of Law" thing was just an analogy.

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