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How Is Size Determined?


jethrodesign

Question

Hi, I'm trying to create my first DVD project using EMC 8 (MyDVD). Where it states the amount of space that the project will use (and also in the Burn dialog), the size appears to be way too high and I'm not able to burn a DVD.

 

I'm trying to backup my TiVo archives. Most are 1-hour programs recorded in 'High' mode. They take up approximately 1.5GB of space for each file on my HD. I've also converted these files for burning in EMC (to mpeg2 using Direct Show Dump). The resulting mpeg files are identical in size to the .tivo files (about 1.5GB each).

 

- So why is it that when I add these files to my project they appear to use about 4GB each or more??

 

I'm trying to put 3 1-hour shows on a DVD. The total space should be about 4.5GB (according to the mpegs). I've tried all different project settings, including the lowest quality, but the smallest the total size seems to get is about 12GB. Even when I use 'Fit to Disc' the size is not scaled down to DVD specs. What's the point of that????

 

Even when I had only added 1 movie (1-hour - 1.5GB), the size was still more than would fit on DVD.

 

- What's going on here??? I only have a very simple menu with the three title links.

 

Am I missing something obvious?

 

THANKS!

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Just finished burning the DVD as follows:

 

Created DVD from the ISO file generated above by using the "Burn from Disc Image File" option in Roxio Creator Classic (EMC 8) -- started burning at 10:24 PM, burn complete at 10:47 PM.

 

Total burn time: 23 minutes

 

Total project time (re-encoding two files using gui4ffmpeg, ISO creation using MyDVD/EMC 8, and DVD burn using Roxio Creator Classic/EMC 8): 91 minutes (1 hour, 31 minutes)

 

Seems much faster than what a lot of you are experiencing. My video rig is a meager Athlon XP 1800+ CPU (not overclocked) with 768 MB of RAM, a Radeon 9700 Pro video card, and a Lite-On DVD burner; my operating system is Windows 2000 Professional.

 

:)

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- Anyone know of any way to convert the file more efficiently than Roxio's default decoder/encoder process? I just need to convert the file into some sort of DVD standard resolution and bitrate.

 

Since your TIVO files are not DVD compliant, EMC 8 (MyDVD) must re-encode the video into a proper DVD-compliant format. Unfortunately, re-encoding with EMC 8 takes a LONG time, as you have discovered. I have essentially the same problem you have, but I have found a work-around that is VERY efficient -- I use gui4ffmpeg (which is FREEWARE) to convert my non-DVD compliant files to a more friendly DVD-compliant format BEFORE I add them to my video project in MyDVD. You can find gui4ffmpeg here:

 

http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=gui4ffmpeg

 

And here is a great little tutorial on how to use it (the tutorial says it's for converting DIVX/XVID to DVD, but it actually works for converting virtually ANY file -- avi, mpeg, etc. -- to an DVD-compliant mpeg file):

 

http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1345948

 

With the latest version of gui4ffmpeg (version 1.3) you will find an "Options" menu selection between the "Batch" and "?" selections at the top of the giu4ffmpeg screen -- if you select "Options" and then un-check the "Presetting" selection, the "width" and "height" selections will be un-grayed, allowing you to type in custom height and width settings directly. Since you're dealing with 480 x 480 TIVO files, you would want to re-encode the files with gui4ffmpeg using a 352 x 480 pixels MPEG2 (Called Half-D1) resolution -- this resolution will give you EXCELLENT quality video that will be virtually indistinguishable from the original TIVO source, and you never gain anything from trying to make a small resolution file larger ("stretching" a 480 x 480 TIVO file to a "full-size" 720 x 480 Full-D1 resoltion will gain you nothing in terms of picture quality). The encoding time using gui4ffmpeg is VERY fast -- I can do 5 or so 23-minute cartoons in around 30 - 40 minutes (I'm using a meager Athlon XP 1800+ CPU with 768 MB of RAM). Then, once the encoding is completed, I create my DVD project by adding the re-encoded 352 x 480 mpeg files to my MyDVD project.

 

The ONE thing you have to remember when using this method is that you MUST go into the File --> Project Settings menu in MyDVD and change the video resolution under the Default encoding settings section -- click on the Custom button and set the resolution to 352 x 480 and adjust the bitrate to fit the needs of the file you're re-encoding. You must do this in order to prevent MyDVD from re-encoding your files yet AGAIN (note that if you use the "Fit To Disk" selection, then MyDVD will also try to re-encode your new DVD-compliant mpeg files). If your video is using MP2 audio instead of AC3 audio, I believe you will also need to select the MPEG button under the audio section. I'm working from memory on this part because I don't have EMC 8 installed on this machine, so I can't double-check the required menu settings in MyDVD. I'll try to verify and update this post later after I have a chance to check out all the necessary settings. [EDITED TO ADD: I double-checked my settings and the info listed here is correct]

 

Anyway, using this method, once I create my project using DVD-compliant files, EMC 8 no longer tries to re-encode when creating an ISO file and the whole process takes about 25 - 35 minutes. After that, I simply burn the ISO file to disk, and I'm up-and-running in a little over an hour-and-a-half total. This method is still a bit of a pain, but it REALLY speeds up the process when trying to create a project in MyDVD using files that aren't DVD-compliant.

 

Hope this helps a bit!

 

:)

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Thanks for the information but jethro hasn't been on the board for almost two months so it is unlikely to see this. If you think it will help someone else, just start a new thred in the "general" board. More people will see it there.

Since your TIVO files are not DVD compliant, EMC 8 (MyDVD) must re-encode the video into a proper DVD-compliant format. Unfortunately, re-encoding with EMC 8 takes a LONG time, as you have discovered. I have essentially the same problem you have, but I have found a work-around that is VERY efficient -- I use gui4ffmpeg (which is FREEWARE) to convert my non-DVD compliant files to a more friendly DVD-compliant format BEFORE I add them to my video project in MyDVD. You can find gui4ffmpeg here:

 

http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=gui4ffmpeg

 

And here is a great little tutorial on how to use it (the tutorial says it's for converting DIVX/XVID to DVD, but it actually works for converting virtually ANY file -- avi, mpeg, etc. -- to an DVD-compliant mpeg file):

 

http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1345948

 

With the latest version of gui4ffmpeg (version 1.3) you will find an "Options" menu selection between the "Batch" and "?" selections at the top of the giu4ffmpeg screen -- if you select "Options" and then un-check the "Presetting" selection, the "width" and "height" selections will be un-grayed, allowing you to type in custom height and width settings directly. Since you're dealing with 480 x 480 TIVO files, you would want to re-encode the files with gui4ffmpeg using a 352 x 480 pixels MPEG2 (Called Half-D1) resolution -- this resolution will give you EXCELLENT quality video that will be virtually indistinguishable from the original TIVO source. The encoding time using gui4ffmpeg is VERY fast -- I can do 5 or so 23-minute cartoons in around 30 - 40 minutes (I'm using a meager Athlon XP 1800+ CPU with 768 MB of RAM). Then, once the encoding is completed, I create my DVD project by adding the re-encoded 352 x 480 mpeg files to my MyDVD project.

 

The ONE thing you have to remember when using this method is that you MUST go into the File --> Project Properties menu in MyDVD and change the video resolution to 352 x 480 -- THIS will prevent MyDVD from re-encoding your files yet AGAIN (if you use the "Fit To Disk" selection, then MyDVD will also try to re-encode your new DVD-compliant mpeg files). If your video is using MP2 audio instead of AC3 audio, I believe you may need to select "Custom" as your resolution and then manually enter "352 x 480" and you will also need to select "MPEG" audio under the audio section. I'm working from memory on this part because I don't have EMC 8 installed on this machine, so I can't double-check the required menu settings in MyDVD. I'll try to verify and update this post later after I have a chance to check out all the necessary settings.

 

Anyway, using this method, once I create my project using DVD-compliant files, EMC 8 no longer tries to re-encode when creating an ISO file and the whole process takes about 25 - 35 minutes. After that, I simply burn the ISO file to disk, and I'm up-and-running in a little over an hour-and-a-half total. This method is still a bit of a pain, but it REALLY speeds up the process when trying to create a project in MyDVD using files that aren't DVD-compliant.

 

Hope this helps a bit!

 

:)

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Yeah, I set up a project using 352 x 480 at about 4.65Mbps and about 192K on the audio. It just barely fit 2 1-hour shows on a DVD (interestingly, when the project said I had 200-300 MB free space left, when I tried to burn the DVD I got an error message stating not enough space on destination drive. I had to have over 400MB free for it to work).

 

I started burning the project last night, and this morning when I left it was STILL NOT FINISHED (over 7.5 hours). That's why I was hoping to have it in a format that would not have to be re-encoded!

 

- Anyone know of any way to convert the file more efficiently than Roxio's default decoder/encoder process? I just need to convert the file into some sort of DVD standard resolution and bitrate.

 

Thanks again!

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Thanks for the information but jethro hasn't been on the board for almost two months so it is unlikely to see this. If you think it will help someone else, just start a new thred in the "general" board. More people will see it there.

 

Yeah, I had pretty much given up on burning TiVo to DVD. I just bought a bigger HD instead (300GB)!

 

But I still was notified of the reply. Thanks a lot! This actually seems like it might be a great solution. I occassionaly check around to see if there are any new developments in the painful 'Burn TiVo to DVD' issue, but most solutions need multiple pieces of software (not free) and take a lot of jumping around, etc.

 

It seems like the biggest problem people probably have with TiVo files, but most know nothing about, is that they are non-standard format. It's talked about a bit, but not much.

 

I'm hoping that once the files are made DVD compliant, they will be much easier to burn, regardless of which DVD burning software a user chooses.

 

I'll try your method and see how it goes. I agree that it would probably be a very beneficial topic to post separately if it works consistently. It may help solve a TON of frustration with TiVo files.

 

THANKS!

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I'll assume you are using MyDVD 8 since you mentioned 'fit to disc'. Sounds like MyDVD is trying to re-render the files for some reason. Are you doing ANY editing once placed in MyDVD? This will force MyDVD to re-render in most cases.

 

As a test, launch MyDVD

creat a project

add one file

Don't do anything else

Click burn

uncheck to disc and to ISO, but check To Folder. Select a distination.

Click BURN

 

In the render dialog box there will be two yellow progress bars and a preview. Does the preview show the movie or a grey box with the work MPEG? If you get the grey box, then MyDVD is NOT re-rendering the file.

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Yeah, I had pretty much given up on burning TiVo to DVD. I just bought a bigger HD instead (300GB)!

 

But I still was notified of the reply. Thanks a lot! This actually seems like it might be a great solution. I occassionaly check around to see if there are any new developments in the painful 'Burn TiVo to DVD' issue, but most solutions need multiple pieces of software (not free) and take a lot of jumping around, etc.

 

It seems like the biggest problem people probably have with TiVo files, but most know nothing about, is that they are non-standard format. It's talked about a bit, but not much.

 

I'm hoping that once the files are made DVD compliant, they will be much easier to burn, regardless of which DVD burning software a user chooses.

 

I'll try your method and see how it goes. I agree that it would probably be a very beneficial topic to post separately if it works consistently. It may help solve a TON of frustration with TiVo files.

 

THANKS!

 

GLAD to help! I will try to re-post this as a separate topic later on . . . please let me know if this method proves useful to you.

 

FWIW, I am a BIG fan of freeware tools -- if you need a good MPEG editor to remove commercials and such, I would recommend Mpg2Cut2 (another nifty piece of freeware):

 

http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=Mpg2Cut2

 

Remember, if you re-encode your TIVO files into a DVD-compliant format, editing the resultant files using VideoWave will result in yet ANOTHER round of re-encoding by EMC 8 when you try to create your ISO file in MyDVD. That's why I use a separate tool (typically Mpg2Cut2) to edit out commercials prior to the re-encoding step with gui4ffmpeg.

 

:)

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Yes I am using the latest version of EMC 8.

 

I was just adding the mpeg files to the project. Even after adding just one, it was already 6-7GB if I remember correctly. At the end I tried editing out the commercials on one to see if that would make a difference in final size, but it didn't seem to.

 

I'll try what you're suggesting when I get home tonight.

 

But even if it did have to re-render the video (which would defeat the purpose of me using DSD to convert the TiVo files) shouldn't the different settings or 'Fit to Disc' allow it to be small enough to fit on a DVD?

 

I'll let you know what I find out.

 

Thanks!

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Wow! This is pretty useless.

 

When I finally got home, the burning process appeared to have completed successfully (according to the dialog). But when I checked the DVD it was empty!

 

Fortunately (I guess) I had checked the button to make an ISO file as well. That was where I put it and it was about 4.1GB (about what I expected).

 

So I used the Disc Copy program to burn this ISO file to DVD. One-half hour later it appeared to have burned correctly. But when I popped this DVD into my computer, it only has 1 of the titles and NO MENU! When I look at the size of the VOB files, they are only a little over 2GB total!

 

I haven't even tried to play this on a stand-alone DVD player.

 

It's looking like burning TiVo files easily to DVD is not really going to happen (at least not with this $100 software)!

 

I wish they had a satisfaction guarantee!!!

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I'm not really sure exactly how 'fit to disc' works. If the file is small enough already, I wouldn't think that it would re-render. But then, things like this never work the way 'I' think it should. LOL I have a feeling those files are below the lowest bitrate that MyDVD supports so it will always try to re-render them.

 

Download GSpot if you don't have it. Load one of the converted MPG files. GSpot will list the resolution and bitrate for the video and audio. I would bet the video bitrate is lower than 4.5Mbps.

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Wow, I didn't know this was going to be so hard.

 

I tried downloading and using GSpot to get more info about the mpeg files that Direct Show Dump created. Unfortunately, it appears to only fully support AVI files. None of the info I was hoping to get.

 

I did try opening a new project and adding either my .tivo file or a .mpg file. They both seemed to act the same. At the lowest bitrate with 720x480 selected, my 1-hour 1.5GB files will take up about 2.1GB of space. At the best setting, it takes up about 4.4GB.

 

* BTW - what settings would be good to use to get quality similar to my TiVo files recorded on 'High' quality mode (one down from best). Again, this makes 1.5GB / hour files. I'm happy with this quality, but wouldn't want to go any lower.

 

I was under the impression that if I used DSD, it would create a MPEG2 file that wouldn't have to be re-rendered and could be much quicker and easier to burn to DVD. Was I mistaken???

 

Any other good methods for backing up TiVo files??

 

THANKS!

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OK, if this helps...

 

TiVo files (at High quality) are:

480 x 480

3.5Mbps

29.97fps

 

So this doesn't seem to match any of the MyDVD presets (or DVD standard for that matter)

 

What would be the best course of action to make this work and keep the quality as high as possible?

 

THANKS! I should have bought a Tivo with a built-in DVD recorder!!!

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I believe you can return it under 30 days. Call customer support.

 

Oh yeah, are you using the latest TiVO desktop software? V2.2 or something like that. Have you done a search on this forum for TIVO? There have been several threads on the subject. Prehaps there is something in those discussions that will help.

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Just a quick update on gui4ffmpeg encoding times -- I had two dissimilar, non-DVD-complaint files (one was 352 x 240 resolution, and the other was a full-D1 720x480 resolution), and I wanted to re-encode them at 352 x 480 half-D1 resolution in order to burn to DVD. I normally wouldn't have bothered sizing-up the smaller 352x240 file to half-D1 352x480 (you gain nothing in terms of picture quality when increasing the resolution of captured video), but both files MUST be the same size in order to select a custom size for the project settings, which is what allows you to bypass the re-encoding step in EMC 8 when generating an ISO file or burning to disk.

 

Anyway, the two programs made up a total of 1 hour and 43 minutes of video (the larger file was 1.52 GB after re-encoding, and the smaller file was 652 MB after re-encoding); I started encoding at 8:10 PM, and encoding was done at 9:08 PM, so the total encoding time for both files (103 minutes of programming) was just 58 minutes. I am now going to add the files to my project in MyDVD, and then generate an ISO to be burned to disk -- this makes for a HUGE time savings over the amount of time it would have taken to re-encode these files in EMC 8.

 

:)

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Yet another update:

 

Using the files mentioned in my previous post, I started the "Burn Project" ISO creation in MyDVD @ 9:33 PM; the ISO creation was completed @ 9:43 PM -- that's a complete ISO file created in exactly 10 minutes with no re-encoding required.

 

THAT should effectively illustrate the benefit of creating a project using files that do not require EMC 8 to do any re-encoding.

 

Final size of ISO: 2.06 GB

 

Total project time so far (encoding using gui4ffmpeg and ISO creation using MyDVD / EMC 8):

 

68 minutes total (not counting background generation and menu layout time, which was minimal).

 

Next step: Burning the DVD.

 

:)

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480X480 is SVCD quality. Interesting that they consider that HQ. LOL

 

Just did a quick MyDVD SVCD project. It defaults to 480X480 @2.5Mbps with MPG2 audio at 224Kbps. Looks like those settings can not be changed.

 

I would say the closest settings would be:

DVD project - custom

352X480 (uses non-square pixels) @ 4.5Mbps (lowest setting)

Select AC3 sound @256Kbps

 

This would give you fairly close to the same quality video and good sound.

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