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Copy Of Audio Cd Has A Few Pops Or Ticks


edjsch

Question

When I copy an audio CD, I get usually get a few (one or two) "pops" or "ticks" in random places on the copy (in different places each copy). Why?

 

I've got nothing else running, and Task Manager shows only 1% CPU utilization before starting the copy. I have a new Dell Vostro 200, 2.1 GHz. dual CPU with 2 GB RAM, DMA is on, running Windows XP SP2. I have only one CD/DVD drive, so it always "stages to the hard drive". Also, I have "Verify copied data" checked in Tools - Options. I've tried at least 3 well-known brands of CD-R's, all with the same results.

 

(I tried copying the CD at my offic PC, also a Dell - Dimension 9200, using Sonic Easy CD Creator - probably a predecessor to Media Creator, and it copied with no errors!)

 

Any suggestions appreciated, as I'm wasting a lot of CD-R's. Thanks much.

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Nor did I, to quote myself, "Audio CDs have much less error correction written to them than do Data CDs." :lol: It's a habit of mine to rarely talk in absolutes. (I could've said that I never talk in absolutes, but that sort of negates what I'm saying.)

 

Your results with WMP and the ticks on the tracks is interesting. I've never used (uh-oh, an "absolute") used it to write an Audio CD. And yes, there's is certainly an inexactness about the whole deal, much as we'd like it to be otherwise.

Yes, never say never!

 

Oops, 4 sentences later you said, "On an Audio CD, you get 2352 bytes (1/75th second) of music information, no ecc at all." But whatever.

 

Here's what I've observed so far in my listening tests (I had 3 copies to listen to and did not listen fully yet). The one made with the "Audio Copy" works best - is identical to the original. (Too bad it took 5 times to get it right!) This particular "highlights" CD (that's enough of the Phantom!) has no gaps at all between tracks. That's the way it was mastered. The copy is the same. However, the 2 CD's made from the WMA files (1 from WMP and the other from EMC9) have a slight gap (maybe 0.1 or 0.2 seconds max) between tracks. I saw some other posts (by a DJ) who could not get 0 gap even when he set the software for a 0 gap. (And he said that an older version of the software worked.)

 

So, again, the direct "copy" not only is faster and less user intervention, but makes an exact copy. Ripping and burning does not! But I do really appreciate your discussing this with me. Thanks much!

 

Regards,

Ed

 

PS - Do you guys have any experience with Nero? (Or is that topic forbidden here?) I'm sure they have problems of their own. I should check their forums to get an idea!

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Yes, never say never!

 

Oops, 4 sentences later you said, "On an Audio CD, you get 2352 bytes (1/75th second) of music information, no ecc at all." But whatever.

 

Here's what I've observed so far in my listening tests (I had 3 copies to listen to and did not listen fully yet). The one made with the "Audio Copy" works best - is identical to the original. (Too bad it took 5 times to get it right!) This particular "highlights" CD (that's enough of the Phantom!) has no gaps at all between tracks. That's the way it was mastered. The copy is the same. However, the 2 CD's made from the WMA files (1 from WMP and the other from EMC9) have a slight gap (maybe 0.1 or 0.2 seconds max) between tracks. I saw some other posts (by a DJ) who could not get 0 gap even when he set the software for a 0 gap. (And he said that an older version of the software worked.)

 

So, again, the direct "copy" not only is faster and less user intervention, but makes an exact copy. Ripping and burning does not! But I do really appreciate your discussing this with me. Thanks much!

 

Regards,

Ed

 

PS - Do you guys have any experience with Nero? (Or is that topic forbidden here?) I'm sure they have problems of their own. I should check their forums to get an idea!

Well, picking nits... ECC is specifically the "Error Correction Code" bytes, those 304 bytes of error-correcting data that indeed do not exist on an Audio CD, as opposed to the Reed-Solomon blah blah blah... :blink:

 

Glad you finally got a good copy.

 

For the most part, discussion of Nero is very limited here, and don't expect any help with it. I have fiddled with it some in the past, and I'm trying to help another friend with a project he's doing in video. I've found the interface to Nero frustrating to navigate, even if the final results were eventually equivalent to what I got with Roxio. (The current project, however, does NOT work right in Nero, where it DOES come out right in the Roxio application.) Also, as far as I know, they don't have a company sponsored users board like Roxio has here.

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As you say, we can read and copy data CD's all day long, with only very rare (these days anyways) problems. And those problems are almost always with copying (writing). Writing/"burning" is time-critical. Reading is much less. There is error correction in both the read and write processes, but in writing there is the imperfect media to contend with as well as time duration of the laser to heat the media. If a CD is written correctly it can almost always be read without any problems. You say so yourself - ripping (reading) it doesn't seem to yield problems. My audio CD in question, which is stamped, is written correctly (with error correction) because it plays (is read) flawlessly in any CD player I've tried. (CD players can read the stamped media better than CD-R's.) As you say, when was the last time you installed software from a CD or DVD and got read errors? Not for a long time, I suspect (a major cause is often damage to the media). But why is there a discussion thread called "burning issues"? The reading issues forum deals mostly with burned disks!!!

 

I said in my post that I have selected copying ("stage") to the hard drive first, which is done anyway when there is only one CD drive as in my PC. Furthermore, I even checked the box to verify that the data is written correctly. I don't understand how the disk can be verified to be written with no errors, but does not play back flawlessly. Unless the software is not encoding something correctly in the copy process.

 

With that thought in mind, when I copied the tracks first, I selected "lossless" mp3 format. But in converting to that, then converting it back to PCM format for an audio CD when burning, there is much opportunity for buggy software to create artifacts, which manifest themselves as pops and ticks when played back (read, decoded, and fed into an analog amplifier). I would think that a "raw" disk copy would be less error prone. The large file image that is created (somewhere in the Application Data folder) in a disk copy I would think would be in a format which would be much more easily and quickly written - there is no (or a much simpler) software and CPU-intensive conversion process required.

 

FYI, I'm an electrical and software / firmware engineer, but have never worked professionally on CD media hardware or software, so I'm pretty much in the same boat, so to speak as the average user and poster in this regard. I experiment like you to see what works and what doesn't, and am frustrated when the latest hardware and software purchased with my hard-earned money does not meet my expectations. In my professional life, when things don't work there are always explanations. I'm sure the Roxio software and hardware people know the answers, but their tech support is terrible, besides, what are they going to say, that their software is buggy? No, blame the hardware or the media. (I'm not minimizing the monumental effort it takes to read - convert - write CD's and DVD's and to create such complex software, which the average user takes for granted. But these things have been in development for over 25 years, and you hate it when we take 2 steps forward and one step backwards. When we put our key in our car's ignition and turn it, we have come to expect the car to start!

 

Sorry for venting in this long post. Your replies are greatly apprectiated. I'll continue experimenting (I'll check if my DVD/CD burner drive has a firmware upgrade, etc.) and keep you posted.

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Sorry if I misunderstood/misinterpreted you on ECC.

 

My good copy, IMHO, was just a lucky shot. I, as an engineer, am accustomed to not depend on luck! One out of 5 is not good odds. (While my office Dell was 1 for 1.) I'm from the Murphy's Law school.

 

Thanks for all your help!

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<snip>

My audio CD in question, which is stamped, is written correctly (with error correction) because it plays (is read) flawlessly in any CD player I've tried.

<snip>

 

With that thought in mind, when I copied the tracks first, I selected "lossless" mp3 format. But in converting to that, then converting it back to PCM format for an audio CD when burning, there is much opportunity for buggy software to create artifacts, which manifest themselves as pops and ticks when played back (read, decoded, and fed into an analog amplifier). I would think that a "raw" disk copy would be less error prone. The large file image that is created (somewhere in the Application Data folder) in a disk copy I would think would be in a format which would be much more easily and quickly written - there is no (or a much simpler) software and CPU-intensive conversion process required.

<snip>

Okay... I'm going to address the two items above.

 

Audio CDs have much less error correction written to them than do Data CDs. Here are the numbers. Each block on a CD holds 2352 bytes. On a Data CD, that equates to 2048 (2K) bytes of data, and 304 bytes of ecc (error correction code). On an Audio CD, you get 2352 bytes (1/75th second) of music information, no ecc at all. Also all CD players have "masking circuits" in them to mask read errors during playback in case a byte or two are "questionable". (Think fingerprints on the disc.) One thing to keep in mind is that the "masking circuitry" runs during playback of an Audio CD, but my understanding is that it does not run when you're doing Digital Audio Extraction (which is different than audio playback), so any read errors may come through as pops/clicks. Again, different drives do DAE better or worse than others.

 

"Lossless mp3"?! I've never heard of it, and it sort of sounds like an oxymoron. I'll have to look for that option when I get home. If you're copying an Audio CD, stick to uncompressed .WAV files. The musical information on an Audio CD is essentially the .WAV file format, but rearranged some to tolerate read errors better. If you're using some sort of .MP3 file as the intermediary, that could be a source of clicks or pops during either the encoding (read) or decoding (write) step. There's essentially no decode/encode with .WAV files, it's the "raw format" that you're looking for. As such, I would guess that the "verify" option may not do anything if you're staging to a .MP3 file, since the file won't match the original data read, and the decoded music may not either unless it's truly a lossless compression scheme, which MP3 almost by definition isn't.

 

This is a users forum, I'm a user like yourself and don't work for Roxio/Sonic. I'm a programmer by trade, but my degree is in electronics. I'm just trying to help clarify what I can with what experience and understanding that I've picked up over the years.

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Dave: From what I have been following, this fellow only wants to talk and argue. You gave him a simple test to make but instead of clicking a mouse and doing it, he wants to over-think it!

 

I think you are wasting your time with this thread…

Jim - This is rude of you. Dave is doing a great job in trying to get to the heart of the issuue. Please stay out of it unless you have something productive to add. I HAVE tried the suggestions; I explained that ripping and then burning did not produce acceptable results in this case. I'm trying to find out why I can't copy this particular CD (I do need to try others, but currently I have already copied everything I need) perfectly on my new PC. And I do have the latest drive firmware. Dave is kind enough to try to help, and I thank him for that.

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Jim - This is rude of you. Dave is doing a great job in trying to get to the heart of the issuue. Please stay out of it unless you have something productive to add. I HAVE tried the suggestions; I explained that ripping and then burning did not produce acceptable results in this case. I'm trying to find out why I can't copy this particular CD (I do need to try outhers, but currently I have already copied everything I need) perfectly on my new PC. And I do have the latest drive firmware. Dave is kind enough to try to help, and I thank him for that.

Of course, one other possibility would be that the disc is copy protected. Some "Audio CDs" were released with a form of copy protection on them. The theory was that they would play okay on CD players (because the masking circuitry would "fix" the protection) but they would have clicks and pops if extracted digitally. Any chance this disc is one of those?

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I was not aware that there is no ECC on audio CD's. I'll look into that. If that's the case, then why would DAE, which you think has no ECC (or "masking"), produce better results than just bulk copying? I would think that is just as likely to yield a bad (wav, mp3, etc.) file.

 

I used Windows Media Player to rip the CD, not Roxio. (Maybe the OEM version doesn't allow ripping - it doesn't on my office Dell, which I'm at now.) Maybe it was the lossless WMA format I selected, not MP3. But in any case, the ripped file did NOT have the pop. This is why I would lean toward the burning process being the culprit. Or the Roxio software!

 

When EMC9 does a bulk copy, I have no idea what the format of the staged file is. Do you?

 

I'd give your suggested Exact Audio Copy a try, but I see that it is only a rippping program, not a copying program, despite it's name! And I was able to rip fine with WMP.

 

One other thought: Remember old copy-protected data CDs? I don't know if this is true, but one of the supposed methods (this is probably an urban myth!) was to introduce extra errors so that reading would be ok, but the added errors introduced inevitably in the burning process would exhaust the ECC. Doesn't sound right to me, because once you have the corrected data on your hard drive, why can't that be written? Doesn't make sense, but did you ever hear this? (Possibly it foiled bulk copying, but not copying an image to your HD first???) Thanks again.

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Of course, one other possibility would be that the disc is copy protected. Some "Audio CDs" were released with a form of copy protection on them. The theory was that they would play okay on CD players (because the masking circuitry would "fix" the protection) but they would have clicks and pops if extracted digitally. Any chance this disc is one of those?

No, as I said, the disk copied perfectly on my office Dell with Ver. 2.xxx (2005) Roxio software. And it also extracted perfectly on my home PC. (My home software is Ver. 9 and says 2006. So in 1 year they had 7 "major" revisions???!!!)

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No, as I said, the disk copied perfectly on my office Dell with Ver. 2.xxx (2005) Roxio software. And it also extracted perfectly on my home PC. (My home software is Ver. 9 and says 2006. So in 1 year they had 7 "major" revisions???!!!)

Okay, so, you were able to make a good copy at home using the extract first, then write method? And previously you were using the disc copy function which gave problems? If true, that points to different DAE methods for the two programs. How did you extract the good set of tracks?

 

As for Ver 2.xxx on your office machine, no, there weren't that many revisions. I'm guessing the application on your office PC isn't Easy Media Creator, maybe one of the Roxio Labs Copy applications?

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Okay, so, you were able to make a good copy at home using the extract first, then write method? And previously you were using the disc copy function which gave problems? If true, that points to different DAE methods for the two programs. How did you extract the good set of tracks?

 

As for Ver 2.xxx on your office machine, no, there weren't that many revisions. I'm guessing the application on your office PC isn't Easy Media Creator, maybe one of the Roxio Labs Copy applications?

Not quite. The "good" copy at home had no pops, but it had that track transition problem I mentioned. And yes, it is the disk copy function that yields the pops.

 

My office machine's software is:

Module Name: Roxio Creator LE - Dell Edition

Build: 2.4.32a

Serial Number: SC-204B37C

Copyright: Sonic Solutions 2005

 

I guess it's not quite "Easy (Ha!) Media Creator" is it.

 

Maybe I should give Nero a try, assuming they have a free trial period before buying.

 

Also, there's a good article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping#Obtai...an_accurate_rip

It confirms a lot of what you said, but, then again, I can rip fine.

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I was not aware that there is no ECC on audio CD's. I'll look into that. If that's the case, then why would DAE, which you think has no ECC (or "masking"), produce better results than just bulk copying? I would think that is just as likely to yield a bad (wav, mp3, etc.) file.

My guess, as I think I alluded to previously is that different parts of EMC use different algorithms for doing DAE, such as double checking the information, (re-reading to verify identical reads) or speeds... I've never actually done any programming in that area to know what the possibilities are.

I used Windows Media Player to rip the CD, not Roxio. (Maybe the OEM version doesn't allow ripping - it doesn't on my office Dell, which I'm at now.) Maybe it was the lossless WMA format I selected, not MP3. But in any case, the ripped file did NOT have the pop. This is why I would lean toward the burning process being the culprit. Or the Roxio software!

If you burned the tracks you ripped using Windows media player, did that have any pops? Try using EMC to rip the tracks and see if you get any pops. Write both sets of files and see what you get. I'm still suspecting the read operation for reasons mentioned previously. These are things you have to try because we can't verify them by talking, only after you do them.

When EMC9 does a bulk copy, I have no idea what the format of the staged file is. Do you?

No, I don't know since I rip to .WAV files manually first. My guess would be .WAV since there's no encoding/decoding/loss involved.

I'd give your suggested Exact Audio Copy a try, but I see that it is only a ripping program, not a copying program, despite it's name! And I was able to rip fine with WMP.

Again, try ripping using EMC to see if you can get a set of files on your HD with pops. After all, it's EMC's ripping/copying capabilities we're trying to test and determine where the error is. If you got a good set of files with WMP, then we can assume it's possible for your hardware to rip the disc accurately.

One other thought: Remember old copy-protected data CDs? I don't know if this is true, but one of the supposed methods (this is probably an urban myth!) was to introduce extra errors so that reading would be ok, but the added errors introduced inevitably in the burning process would exhaust the ECC. Doesn't sound right to me, because once you have the corrected data on your hard drive, why can't that be written? Doesn't make sense, but did you ever hear this? (Possibly it foiled bulk copying, but not copying an image to your HD first???) Thanks again.

Prior to "Burn Proof" technology, embedded errors could slow the read process significantly enough that you would get a buffer underrun when doing a copy, which would make the disc you were writing to a coaster. So, I don't know if what you're saying is an urban myth or not. Some discs actually had physical defects in them, and the install application could verify an unreadable section of the disc to know that the disc was an original.

 

As for the transition "error", it's entirely possible that the disc was mastered that way, so that the transition on the disc isn't exactly at the beginning of the song. This I know can, and has happened on commercially produced CDs.

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My guess, as I think I alluded to previously is that different parts of EMC use different algorithms for doing DAE, such as double checking the information, (re-reading to verify identical reads) or speeds... I've never actually done any programming in that area to know what the possibilities are.

 

If you burned the tracks you ripped using Windows media player, did that have any pops? Try using EMC to rip the tracks and see if you get any pops. Write both sets of files and see what you get. I'm still suspecting the read operation for reasons mentioned previously. These are things you have to try because we can't verify them by talking, only after you do them.

 

No, I don't know since I rip to .WAV files manually first. My guess would be .WAV since there's no encoding/decoding/loss involved.

 

Again, try ripping using EMC to see if you can get a set of files on your HD with pops. After all, it's EMC's ripping/copying capabilities we're trying to test and determine where the error is. If you got a good set of files with WMP, then we can assume it's possible for your hardware to rip the disc accurately.

 

Prior to "Burn Proof" technology, embedded errors could slow the read process significantly enough that you would get a buffer underrun when doing a copy, which would make the disc you were writing to a coaster. So, I don't know if what you're saying is an urban myth or not. Some discs actually had physical defects in them, and the install application could verify an unreadable section of the disc to know that the disc was an original.

 

As for the transition "error", it's entirely possible that the disc was mastered that way, so that the transition on the disc isn't exactly at the beginning of the song. This I know can, and has happened on commercially produced CDs.

<No, the WMP ripped tracks have no pops.> Sorry, I misread your question. I did not try burning the ripped tracks. I guess I need to do that to really see if it's the burning process causing the pops.

 

<I'll try EMC9, but, as I said, the DE version might not have that capability. I'll let you know.> Delete this.

 

Is it possible to rip the entire CD as one large file/track?

 

Yes, the track transition error I'm sure is in the mastering.

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No, the WMP ripped tracks have no pops. I'll try EMC9, but, as I said, the DE version might not have that capability. I'll let you know.

 

Is it possible to rip the entire CD as one large file/track?

 

Yes, the track transition error I'm sure is in the mastering.

I just saw a utility last night that supposedly would rip an entire Audio CD as one long track, but I don't recall the name. If you do a google search you should be able to find something. Alternatively, there's a utility called WAVMERGE that will let you append .WAV files together into a single large .WAV file.

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I just saw a utility last night that supposedly would rip an entire Audio CD as one long track, but I don't recall the name. If you do a google search you should be able to find something. Alternatively, there's a utility called WAVMERGE that will let you append .WAV files together into a single large .WAV file.

I'm not an iTunes user but I'm pretty sure it will rip to 1 continuous track. And, Winamp's new version supposedly will as well. However, as I've not personally tried these, I can't confirm this.

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Do any of you guys know if it makes a difference if I copy an audio CD in the "Data" tab (section), the "Audio" tab, or the "Copy" tab?

 

My office Roxio Creator LE cannot copy a CD in the audio section, only the data section, while my EMC9-DE at home has the ability to copy in 3 tabs. Are they identical?

 

Also, if I select "Save Image" (to hard drive for future burning) in the Copy tab, is that file identical to the "staged" file during the copy process? Will it work for audio CDs?

 

BTW, my office "Roxio Creator LE" CANNOT rip. I'm home now, and neither can my "Roxio Creator DE, ver. 9.0.116 (2006). I'd have to upgrade, but version 10 has its own problems. The registry has this info about my installed software capabilities, because when I insert an audio CD, the menu that pops up asks if I want to rip using Windows Media Player, not Roxio!

 

The programs look t be the same, but they ARE 7 revisions apart! Plus, I just got this Dell Vostro in Nov. 2007. Why are they pre-installing 2006 software! (I know this is a question for Dell.)

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Thanks, Dave, but I have a question about your suggestion: I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that the pops occur during the WRITING phase, not the READING phase. If so, then ripping it first (which my Dell version can do), will not help. I assume this because older CD creator software's help suggests slowing down the WRITING speed if these kinds of problems occur. This version 9 does not allow the user to manually set the writing speed; it is always "automatic". (Does the latest version allow it?)

 

What is your experience/knowledge: Is it more likely for the reading or the writing phase to causes the pops?

 

Furthermore, it is quite an annoyance to have to manually rip the CD first then copy it. In the past with old hardware (even my first 2x external HP CD drive) and software, copies were fine, albeit slow. Computers and software are supposed to get better, not worse!

 

Thanks again.

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Thanks, Dave, but I have a question about your suggestion: I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that the pops occur during the WRITING phase, not the READING phase. If so, then ripping it first (which my Dell version can do), will not help. I assume this because older CD creator software's help suggests slowing down the WRITING speed if these kinds of problems occur. This version 9 does not allow the user to manually set the writing speed; it is always "automatic". (Does the latest version allow it?)

 

What is your experience/knowledge: Is it more likely for the reading or the writing phase to causes the pops?

 

Furthermore, it is quite an annoyance to have to manually rip the CD first then copy it. In the past with old hardware (even my first 2x external HP CD drive) and software, copies were fine, albeit slow. Computers and software are supposed to get better, not worse!

 

Thanks again.

Well, we're still determining which step is causing the problem. By ripping, and listening first, you can determine which is the cause of the problem. If the clicks/pops show up in the files on your HD, then the reading step is the problem. If the files on the HD sound okay, and you get pops/clicks on the CD, then the writing step is the problem. My guess is the ripping/reading step.

 

As for slowing down the write speed, in some cases, on some systems, with some drives, people have felt they gotten a more readable disc that way. And in the case of a system with two drives, then if the source drive is having trouble reading the disc, then slowing the write speed helps by allowing the source drive to keep up.

 

I'm running EMC 9, and I have options for setting my write speed, but then, I never copy "on-the-fly", I always rip to my HD first, then write separately, even though I have multiple drives in my system. The "Copy" function may only allow for the "automatic" setting.

 

As for old vs. new software and hardware, in my opinion everyone wants everything to go lightning fast, and cost next to nothing. Considering the changes over the last 10-12 years, that's almost true. (My first 2X HP writer cost over $1000.) But few are willing to pay extra for quality, so only what is needed gets built/written into things.

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Many thanks again. I viewed the User Guide for MC10 (it seems MC9 or lower is no longer for sale), and there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the ability to change the write speed for CD's (Tools -> Options -> General -> Advanced). When I first had the problem I called Dell support (the computer was new), and they said that is what they have been seeing -- that newer software doesn't necessarily have the ability to set the write speed. Then they said to check with Roxio, which is why I'm here. (I find the discussion groups are usually better than their tech support.)

 

My 1 year older Dell at my office, as I said, copied the CD with zero pops or ticks. It's using the DE (Dell OEM) version 2.4.32a of "Roxio Creator LE" (2005), and it has the ability to set the writing speed. I believe I set it to 24x when I made the copy, but the auto-speed adjust on my home PC bounced around 22x.

 

When I make a compilation CD I, of course, rip first. But sometimes, as in this instance, I wanted to copy the disk. As a matter of fact, the disk in question is my "Phantom of the Opera Highlights" CD. I did try ripping it, and because of the way they made the highlight CD, a few of the track transistions were screwed up (in one or 2 places the last second or so of one track was at the beginning of the next track -- the original had no gap between tracks - it was an abrupt transition). I didn't listen fully to the ripped version, but on my bad copies, there always was a pop somewhere in the first track (the opening overture). The ripped version didn't have it, and neither did the copy I made (with the screwed up track transitions). So, by that reasoning, it could very well be the ripping process as opposed to the burning process, as you conjuctured.

 

Why do you favor the reading process to more likely be the problem than the burning process? Is it from experience only? Also, have you seen problems based on the volume of the music being copied? That section is pretty loud with a lot of bass. But since it's only 1's and 0's (digital), it should not matter!

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Ok. I did some more experimenting and have more info. I deleted my previously ripped files, then ripped again to lossless WMA files using Windows Media Player ("WMP") again. They all play perfectly.

 

Then I burned a CD using WMP and have no pops. (I set the burn speed to SLOW - in WMP it's selectable - but it seems to be ignored because it burned at about 30x - I timed some tracks.) However, at the end of each track there is a slight tick, which is NOT present in the WMA file. And sometimes (not between all tracks) when the track ends (with the tick), the next track has a slight bit of audio from the end of the previous track, as previously noted!

 

Then I burned a CD using the Roxio MC9 (aka "Roxio Creator DE"). It did a better job. There are no slight ticks at the end of the tracks as with WMP. And I only detected that slight piece of audio from the previous track at the beginning of track 2 (but I'll later listed to the whole CD more thoroughly). (Remember, that slight piece of audio is not present in the WMA file playback.)

 

Next, just for the heck of it, after making about 5 flawed copies, I decided to try one more time with MC9 audio CD copy. Now get this: It doesn't seem to have the pops, and there are no ticks at the end of tracks, and no bit of audio from the end of track 1 at the beginning of track 2. In other words, the copy seems to be good, but I now need to listen to the whole CD to make sure. I'll let you know.

 

(Maybe it's the humidity today, or sun spots or cosmic rays, or lack thereof! This seems to be quite an inexact science! But in previous posts you guys pointed out - when I was having problems with drag-to-disk - that CD-R media is not perfect - causing writing problems - since the data is good on the hard drive. This probably subconsciously also made me think initially - and I still do because my experiments seem to bear it out - that it's the burning process that is more problematic.)

 

I've wasted a lot of time and created a lot of coasters with this whole stupid thing, all because of unexpected flawed copies in the first place. It's definitely more convenient and faster to just pop in a CD and copy it than to rip and burn. But if that's what it takes, then so be it...

 

To be continued... And thanks to all for your help.

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Either way... I've understood, and have been saying that since before Wikipedia existed. :lol:

Well, the Wiki article doesn't quite say that there is NO error correction, but just that the "Cross-interleaved Reed-Solomon" coding technique "includes an extra facility that interpolates across uncorrectable errors" (so that errors can be handled without destroying the whole disk). It is analogous to the USB isochronous transfer mode which is designed for time-critical delivery of data, such as audio and video, that can tolerate slight imperfections. The bulk transfer mode, by contrast, guarantees integrity of the data, but not the latency (time delivery).

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When I copy an audio CD, I get usually get a few (one or two) "pops" or "ticks" in random places on the copy (in different places each copy). Why?

 

I've got nothing else running, and Task Manager shows only 1% CPU utilization before starting the copy. I have a new Dell Vostro 200, 2.1 GHz. dual CPU with 2 GB RAM, DMA is on, running Windows XP SP2. I have only one CD/DVD drive, so it always "stages to the hard drive". Also, I have "Verify copied data" checked in Tools - Options. I've tried at least 3 well-known brands of CD-R's, all with the same results.

 

(I tried copying the CD at my offic PC, also a Dell - Dimension 9200, using Sonic Easy CD Creator - probably a predecessor to Media Creator, and it copied with no errors!)

 

Any suggestions appreciated, as I'm wasting a lot of CD-R's. Thanks much.

Not all CD drives do a great job of extracting CD Audio tracks, and not all utilities do the extraction the same way. In EMC 9, there are about 3 ways to extract Audio CD tracks, and I would suggest you try extracting them "manually," then write them using Music Disc Creator.

 

I'm assuming, possibly incorrectly, that you have a full version of EMC 9 Suite, not an OEM version. If so, then you can go into Tools and open the Disc and Device utility, select the tracks, and click the "Read Track" button, to extract the tracks to your HD. You can also do it from the "Home" application, as I recall, and possibly in Music Disc Creator too. I don't have it running here on my work machine. Once you've done that, you can listen to the tracks first to make sure there aren't any clicks or pops. If so, you could try re-extracting that track... possibly with a different utility. You may find that one of them does a better job with your drive than others. If so, and it works well consistently, and you gain confidence, you can skip the part about previewing the tracks.

 

If you continue to get random clicks and pops using the various EMC options, you may want to try the free "Exact Audio Copy" to do the job.

 

Hope that helps!

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