Importing Streams From Twin Video Cams

[RogerG]

Although I have a Fuji W1, I prefer to take higher res video with two Panasonic 3ccd mini dv cams. These are stopped and started with an ir remote which is connected by optical cable to both cameras. I use an optical and audio cue for each scene.

 

At the moment I use Pinnacle Studio to import the two streams, then synch the left/right in the time line with one as an overlay, using the audio and video cues. As there is no 3d facility in Studio, I have to trim each stream in parallel with the other, then export as two 2d files, which are then joined in StereoMovieMaker.

 

Am I able to import both streams separately into Creator, trim the scenes in parallel, add transitions etc, then save/export from the time line as a stereo file rather than two 2d files as I do now?

 

That will make a huge difference to the work load and make serious projects a possibility!

 

Roger

[gi7omy]

LG have just released their 23 inch 3D monitor - priced at 330 Euros - I'll give it a miss I think

 

Their 42" 3D TV starts at a cool 1700 sterling (and the glasses set you back another 100 on top of that - per pair)

 

It's not going to be that big of a take up I think in the present economic climate

[RogerG]

Hi Gary,

 

I can never see the point in being abusive on a forum, as people are usually on there for enjoyment and discussion rather than confrontation, although not always the case

 

The url of the 3d forum is My link it is a very friendly and active forum covering all things 3d and this some very knowledgeable members.

 

Like yourself, I have tried many editing programmes over the years, although not Creator, as it has seemed a little too basic for me, but I am sure very able for basic home use. I have been constantly frustrated in my efforts to achieve affordable serious 3d video editing, however the new programme that I have bought, allows me to achieve that at a cost of £69 in the UK. I don't think it appropriate to publish the name of the programme on this Roxio forum, but you are welcome to PM me if you would like any more info, or a review is available on the 3d forum.

 

Roger

[ggrussell]

with the website giving a glowing overview of the 3d video editing facility. I am sure that as a general basic 2d editing programme, it is very capable,

And IMHO, Creator 2011 is still a very capable 3D editor, but as you posted, Very basic which would work for most users. Anyone that needs more advanced features should consider another product. At one time or another, I think I have purchased just about every consumer video editor under $150. The only one I have continuously upgraded is Roxio because it is simple to use with most of the features I need. However, I did recently upgrade two other editors because of the advanced editing features.

[sknis]

Hi Sknis and Gary.

 

My appologies are due then guys, as my assumption about your Roxio connections was misplaced and I must congratulate you on being available to other users. I fully support that, as I am always available and enjoy helping out other users on our 3D forum.

 

It does beg the question as to the sincerity of Roxio's own support though! I suppose I am particularly annoyed as 3d videographers have long been awaiting an affordable consumer and semi pro level 3d editing system. Creator 2011 is marketed with the 3d facility to grab interest, with the website giving a glowing overview of the 3d video editing facility. I am sure that as a general basic 2d editing programme, it is very capable, but raising the hopes of the 3D community was a marketing mistake in my opinion as there are far too many shortcomings.

 

Keep up the valuable work that you do guys and many thanks for your help and knowledge of the programme.

 

Roger

 

Thanks but no apology needed; people often make that mistake and are not very kind when they reply to our posts. Some have to be edited to take out the "bad words" !

 

What is the URL for your 3D forum?

[RogerG]

Hi Sknis and Gary.

 

My appologies are due then guys, as my assumption about your Roxio connections was misplaced and I must congratulate you on being available to other users. I fully support that, as I am always available and enjoy helping out other users on our 3D forum.

 

It does beg the question as to the sincerity of Roxio's own support though! I suppose I am particularly annoyed as 3d videographers have long been awaiting an affordable consumer and semi pro level 3d editing system. Creator 2011 is marketed with the 3d facility to grab interest, with the website giving a glowing overview of the 3d video editing facility. I am sure that as a general basic 2d editing programme, it is very capable, but raising the hopes of the 3D community was a marketing mistake in my opinion as there are far too many shortcomings.

 

Keep up the valuable work that you do guys and many thanks for your help and knowledge of the programme.

 

Roger

[ggrussell]

I had assumed that you were experienced 3d users like myself, offering advice, but not connected to Roxio.

Your assumption was correct. As 'sknis' posted, we are mostly users like yourself just trying to help each other out. Our levels of experience vary. Roxio Creator Suite has always been aimed at less experienced users with an easy to use interface and less advanced feature set. Although I own several other video editors for more complex projects, I still use Videowave and MyDVD for the simple projects and most of my family videos.

 

As for 3D, Roxio kept it simple with importing 3D video from single camcorders. From what I can tell so far, the transitions, overlays and text on a 3D project also stay on the same 3D plane. Would have been better if they had added 3D motion Tab where overlays or text would literally fly off the screen. Maybe the next version!

[sknis]

Only people with the @ Roxio name (jon and Du) are Roxio techincal support. The rest of us are users with some experience with the suite of programs. Since 3D is new to Creator 2011, our 3D experience is not as great as yours. Sorry we could not help more.

[RogerG]

I thought that we had already answered your query about Creator 2011 and using two separate sources for 3D. Creator 2011 doesn't have that option.

 

Hi Gary,

 

Perhaps I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick here, as I thought that you guys were offering voluntary advice based on my basic queries here. As you pointed out, you have already answered my basic query regarding two video streams, for which I am gratful to you. There were a number of other issues which I asked about in my emails to Roxio support, regarding the manipulation of images once imported from a stereo video source, and assumed that my enquiries would be answered by email from the technical people.

 

So I now assume that you guys are the technical support, in which case I am surprised that this wasn't pointed out by the customer support people. I had assumed that you were experienced 3d users like myself, offering advice, but not connected to Roxio. Having now looked at the number of your posts, I can see that assumption was wrong.

 

It would now be pointless asking you for further information as I am satisfied with my new programme and Creator is unable to cater for my basic 3d editing requirements. I do think it would be constructive, if the customer support team made it clear when 'Tickets' are submitted, that official Roxio technical support is available on the forum, otherwise I am sure that others will also assume that the forum is independant as are many other forums.

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Roger

[ggrussell]

I thought that we had already answered your query about Creator 2011 and using two separate sources for 3D. Creator 2011 doesn't have that option.

[RogerG]

There are alignment/convergence adjustments for the 3D sill image app, but I don't see anything for that in Videowave or MyDVD.

 

I have been attempting to get some answers to my queries from Roxio's 'Technical Support' since my last post here. I have had regular automated replies asking if my queries have been answered, but inspite of 2 emails telling me that the technical department would be responding to my enquiries, there has been absolutely no response whatsoever!!! I find that absolutely disgraceful, particularly as my findings were being published on a highly respected 3d forum.

 

However since my original attempt to get questions answered and with thanks to you guys on the forum, my problems have been resolved by a new programme becoming available at a similar price to Creator, which is able to handle individual video streams from 2 cameras, with all the trimming, alignment and output facilities that I could want. I have therefore purchased the programme and am delighted with the results, so have given up trying to get answers about Creator as it has now been overtaken.

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Roger

[ggrussell]

There are alignment/convergence adjustments for the 3D sill image app, but I don't see anything for that in Videowave or MyDVD.

[BruceLV]

Jim, on a similar subject, within VideoWave, working on the timeline with a 2D converted to 3D, is there an adjustment (tweaking the alignment/convergence) for clips or will that come in a future version that will cost extra? There are some software makers who do just that, to rake in more money by saving valuable features for an other release to make more money. I hope it isn't the case with 2011.

 

Any and all help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Bruce

[Jim_Hardin]

Hi Jim,

 

Sorry I couldn't get back earlier, I had a look at the 2d and 3d files and although I could download them, I couldn't get any programme to play them. The 3d s/s showed as a still as a squeezed pair, but wouldn't play.

 

I'll try something else when I get back from a commercial shoot tomorrow evening.

 

Roger

They are recorded as NTSC but that should not stop you???

 

Kind of irrelevant anyway since, as I posted, I was thinking in 1/2 width Side By Side and you are talking about full frame Side by Side… I only have a 1/2 width mind

[RogerG]

Roger: I did some revisiting this afternoon...

 

I had forgotten about the Side By Side and was only thinking about the 1/2 Width Side by Side that my Aiptek uses!

 

I converted one to Side by Side. Win Explorer & Media Player can't do a thing with it - no error but No Picture

 

Quick Time has a little trouble too:

 

 

And note that CinePlayer only displays it properly in a 2D mode!

 

CinePlayer displays only in Full Screen but only part of the picture shows:

 

 

There are some settings in CP that I did not try Guess it is still a work in progress for me

 

Hi Jim,

 

Sorry I couldn't get back earlier, I had a look at the 2d and 3d files and although I could download them, I couldn't get any programme to play them. The 3d s/s showed as a still as a squeezed pair, but wouldn't play.

 

I'll try something else when I get back from a commercial shoot tomorrow evening.

 

Roger

[Jim_Hardin]

Roger: I did some revisiting this afternoon...

 

I had forgotten about the Side By Side and was only thinking about the 1/2 Width Side by Side that my Aiptek uses!

 

I converted one to Side by Side. Win Explorer & Media Player can't do a thing with it - no error but No Picture

 

Quick Time has a little trouble too:

 

 

And note that CinePlayer only displays it properly in a 2D mode!

 

CinePlayer displays only in Full Screen but only part of the picture shows:

 

 

There are some settings in CP that I did not try Guess it is still a work in progress for me

[Jim_Hardin]

Yes you are right about the interlacing the frames! Did you look at the files I uploaded for you?

 

It could just be a display issue when dealing with non-3D monitors?

 

Personally I think 3D is going to be a flash in the pan… But until the market decides, I will dabble with it

 

Please keep us up to date with your ventures!

[RogerG]

Well with any Half Frame method you are going to get a 2:1 reduction in one direction! – that’s the way it works…

 

To be anything else you would have to have a frame size of 3840 X 1080 to maintain 'full size' in a side by side.

 

But no one has changed the frame size of HD so it has to squish or accept black bars, no way around it.

 

Here are a couple of short 2D & 3D clips from my Aiptek you can look at:

 

3D Clip

2D Clip

 

(i still can't download from there but uploads work great )

 

Jim, I totally agree with you on half frame, if you want to see s/s on a screen, you are going to use half the pixels on each side, but thats not how 3d monitors and TVs work. The full 1920x1080 is maintained by using alternating interlaced frames and doubling the refresh rate to eliminate the flickering. Then either shutter or polarized glasses to separate them. I can edit my pics and videos quite happily in parallel full size frames in editing software such as Pinnacle Studio, the problem comes at the output stage when I want to produce a stereo file. I want to output in full resolution as interlaced alternate frames, which programmes like StereoMovieMaker allow me to do, although I appreciate that to outpute a full screen S/S image, it is neccessary to halve the pixel rate for each side.

 

My main priority is not s/s though but interlaced/real3d output which I can convert to s/s if I choose. So until someone offers the facilities of the free StereoMovieMaker with the addition of multi scenes and transitions, it remains a grindingly slow and time consuming process.

 

Roger

[Jim_Hardin]

Well with any Half Frame method you are going to get a 2:1 reduction in one direction! – that’s the way it works…

 

To be anything else you would have to have a frame size of 3840 X 1080 to maintain 'full size' in a side by side.

 

But no one has changed the frame size of HD so it has to squish or accept black bars, no way around it.

 

Here are a couple of short 2D & 3D clips from my Aiptek you can look at:

 

3D Clip

2D Clip

 

(i still can't download from there but uploads work great )

[RogerG]

I would actually disagree with you Jim that some squish is normal It may be with the Aiptek as this is the first output that I have seen from it. It may also be with Creator 2011 but I have never used it.

 

When I take a 3d pic, I may use cha cha, I may use the Fuji W1 or the synched video cams set to photo shoot. the pictures are saved to whatever resolution and size that I have set. I then process them in StereoPhotoMaker, whhich retains the original size unless I resize it. If I make a side by side pic as you have done here, the end stereo picture will be double the width of my origina, just as the one I posted

 

Maybe that is what you are missing here, as your stereo pic width is the same size as the 2d one. So what you are seeing is a 2:1 horizontal compression. I don't know what you see when you are viewing it, but if you see a non squeezed picture, then the viewing software is doubling the horizontal width of each pixel. Assuming that the pixel count is the same as with the 2d pic, then you only have half the resolution. If that is how the Aiptek camera and software work, then I would be very disappointed . The Fuji W1 saves L/R pics as full size full res stereo pairs, so there is none of the squeezing that I see with your pics.

 

The same applies to Fuji video files and of course with the L&R files that I take from my Panasonic video cams. If I join the video files in StereoMovieMaker, then I can output a stereo side by side video that is the same proportion as the original files-no horizontal squeezing. I can produce a side by side file in Pinnacle but it will be compressed into two correctly proportioned pics, but with black above and below to fit the screen.

 

It would be quite possible in Pinnacle to set the proportions with 2:1 horizontal compression, which would leave the screen completely filled, but would need a software viewer or suitaby equipped 3d TV to stretch it back to the correct proportions again with loss of horizontal resolution.

 

As 3d TV will be using polarised or shutter glasses, then the finished stereo files should be in full screen full width for b

 

So at the moment StereoMovieMaker produces the correct file sizes but only on single scenes and other editing programmes are unable to sync seperate files, so it looks like 'watch this space' at the moment.

 

Roger

[Jim_Hardin]

I don’t have all the answers but some squish is Normal!

 

Here is a 3D shot from my Aiptek and the same shot in in 2D:

 

 

 

You can see the 2 r/l’s are squished!

(not on tripod so they are a little different)

 

The movie clips are the same way…

 

I think something else is missing here???

[RogerG]

Sorry, Jim is correct. Videowave requires that the input video is already 3D. No idea what I was thinking.

Here is

showing you how to get the two files into ONE. Output is then a L/R file that should work in Videowave. The person was using Adobe After Effects. Not sure if we could duplicate that in other applications.

 

I had a look at the Youtube video and as you say, the 3d file was produced using Adobe After Effects which in the UK costs about £1000 !!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think I'll be buying that to enable me to use the £49 Creator programme.

 

However what was clear was that he reduced the original file to a much smaller 320x240 file, to fit two compressed side by side images on screen, then still had to use a second programme, Pinnacle Studio in the example, to trim and add titles etc. Not saisfactory or economical.

 

At present I can produce a side by side video very easily in Pinnacle Studio, which is made from 2 video files, which are both synched and trimmed within Studio, and add transitions audio and titles. The problem is that the end product is squeezed and compressed, losing a large proportion of the original quality. I want to bring in two files which are then combined full size into a stereo file. This is something that I can do in the free StereoMovieMaker programme, but only with one scene files. So we seem to be going round in an endless loop with no company at present offering a serious consumer priced 3d editing programme.

 

I have put my findings on the Creator 2011 programme on the 3dpPhoto forum website and here is the link if you want to read it Creator report

If there is anything innacurate or just plain wrong, let me know and I will update the report as there are a lot of people on the forum who would be interested, and a huge number of guest viewers.

 

Best regards

 

Roger

[ggrussell]

Sorry, Jim is correct. Videowave requires that the input video is already 3D. No idea what I was thinking.

Here is

showing you how to get the two files into ONE. Output is then a L/R file that should work in Videowave. The person was using Adobe After Effects. Not sure if we could duplicate that in other applications.

[RogerG]

Thanks for clearing that up Gary, so at least I can sync in Pinnacle then add detailed trimming, transitions and titles in Creator.

 

It seems to me that Roxio have missed out here on something really special, as not many people have Stereo camcorders or Fuji W1/3s. Certainly on the forum I belong to, most people trying 3d video, work with pairs of basic cams. If I could output my trimmed and synched L/R timeline from Pinnacle as a 3d file, that would be a quick and easy option, whereas it sounds as if I still would have to create L/R files then import into Creator for further output.

 

Even with conventional 2d editing, I still frequently overlay footage on a second video track, trim it in parallel sync and then replace the top track footage where needed, typically in a multi camera music shoot. Presumably Creator is not able to do that either. I'm surprised if it can't, as I would expect that to be a requirement of anything other than absolute basic editng. If on the other hand it can, then I can't understand why both tracks, once synched, can't be handled as a stereo file.

 

Roger

[Jim_Hardin]

That is correct. Once the two files are imported, they are treated as one. Just edit like a single video clip.

 

I suppose Roxio didn't think anyone would be using two separate camcorders to shoot 3D.

I know I am missing it…

 

Step by step how do you bring 2 separate files into VideoWave and make them one???

[RogerG]

Hi Guys,

 

Here are the two synched panasonic mini DV cams with me viewing an experimental live 3d monitor with a loreo lite viewer. All I want now is to be able to edit reasonably simply!

 

(The pic is xeye)

Roger